The same can be said of flu.
COVID-19 (Coronavirus) discussion
- Thread starter ThundyCat
- Start date
True but there isn't the hype about flu though. Testing positive, getting symptoms and dying are all separate events. Millions will test positive, of those, hundreds of thousands will get mild to severe symptoms and of those that are in the severe group thousands will die but it all depends on how they interpret the statistics. If for example the statistics say 1 in a million died from flu and 3 in a million died from covid does that mean they have the correct analysis or just using the data to show what they want?
I'm not belittling the consequences of covid but just asking if death toll is actually correctly reported. My mum contracted covid while in hospital and died, but the cause of death was put done as chronic bronchitis, copd, age and covid.
I'm eligible for the booster, but the messaging was absolutely ******* terrible.
I was checking repeatedly last year, and it was only a chat with the pharmacist giving me the flu jab (which they also limited), which led me to ringing up the vaccine number and being told yes I was eligible, apparently on two counts (I am effectively the primary carer for my father who is is very much at risk).
Apparently the criteria had changed in the previous 2-4 weeks and i'm fairly sure the booking website hadn't updated for a while before that.
the list of "contributing causes" on the death certificate will always state them in the order in which they affected the death.
For example my mum's stated Alzheimers as the primary (chronic/ongoing) and Pneumonia from memory.
It was the Pneumonia that actually killed her, but the Alzhiemers was what made her vulnerable to it.
You can also see the effect in the death stats, just looking at the number of deaths and the age groups shows a huge excess, and even after the initial "vulnerable" died that excess didn't go down for a while, and from memory we're still at least hitting the "normal" pre covid death levels which given we've lost a lot of people "early" means we're still having more die than we should.
And as I've said before, America, thanks to Trump and the other Republican death cult has shown quite bleakly how much of an effect Covid has on the population, as IIRC unvaccinated people are still dying of Covid at a much higher rate, and the cult of Trump has decided that vaccines are bad and covid is a lie, and for some reason their death rate is much higher than the democrats living in the same areas (D's are far more likely to have the vaccine/be taking at least some precuations).
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So there is evidence of a disagreement between the government and JCVI? Plus you seem to be suggesting that JCVI aren't competent?
Surely the hospitals should be full of previously healthy young unvaccinated people by now?
a lot of the early deaths were just counted as covid regardless of whether it was the main cause or not. So if you deduct the deaths that were not directly covid you would probably halve the official death toll.
In other news the covid inquiry circus moves to Scotland - many on here were adamant that Krankie was a better leader and that outcomes were much better in Scotland due to tougher restrictions, so lets see - popcorn time lol...
www.telegraph.co.uk
We must now await the eventual conclusions of the inquiry (assuming any of us live that long). All we know today is that despite the much-trumpeted differences in approach to the pandemic by the caring, sympathetic, head-tilting first minister to that taken by our partying, uncaring prime minister, Covid fatalities were pretty much the same in Scotland as anywhere else. So, why did Scots have to suffer longer and harsher lockdowns? Why were Scottish school pupils kept out of their schools for longer? What good did it do for Scotland’s hospitality industry to suffer more losses and business than their English counterparts?
Saint Nicola is set for her greatest humiliation yet
Sturgeon's pandemic narrative could be completely destroyed as the Covid Inquiry heads north of the border
www.telegraph.co.uk
We must now await the eventual conclusions of the inquiry (assuming any of us live that long). All we know today is that despite the much-trumpeted differences in approach to the pandemic by the caring, sympathetic, head-tilting first minister to that taken by our partying, uncaring prime minister, Covid fatalities were pretty much the same in Scotland as anywhere else. So, why did Scots have to suffer longer and harsher lockdowns? Why were Scottish school pupils kept out of their schools for longer? What good did it do for Scotland’s hospitality industry to suffer more losses and business than their English counterparts?
Got any evidence to prove which ones were "just counted as covid regardless", or is this just another "Theory" with nothing to back it up?
The death count was one of the biggest statistical farces of the whole thing - each country in the world had a different definition but they were still summarised into a global top trumps death competition that was ultimately meaningless..
Do you need evidence to work out that they did put down every death that had covid in the death certificate regardless of whether that was the main cause or not. If death wasn't directly attributed to covid it should be discounted for the statistical analysis.
So that's a "no" then?
Got it.
*Edit*
You've literally had it explained to you above by Warewolf and SGF how the cause of death is attributed and listed on the death certificate.
You have also had it explained what a significantly serious offense it is for a coroner / pathologist to falsify the cause on the death certificate.
Knowing all this, why do you still choose to believe that you have "worked out" that they "put down every death that had covid, regardless of whether it was the main cause or not" ?
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I said nothing about the Pathologist or Coroner, I have just said how the statistics can be massaged to fit. I have been around long enough to see how governments work, plus I have family that work in the NHS.
Edit
I do wish people would actually read a post properly.
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Didn’t they have to adjust the death counts several times - so were a lot of pathologists sacked due to serious offences…
If you've read through this thread and its predecessor it was broken down from early on in the UK into deaths involving COVID and deaths where it was the underlying cause - I've posted data from ONS, etc. many times. Data for where COVID was the only cause of death has been a little more obscure but mentioned from time to time.
The numbers will never be 100% accurate, there will be many deaths which won't go down as COVID where realistically it is COVID which set them on a downhill course but wasn't present at time of death.
Something which seems a lot miss is that the flu, etc. works similarly, when say there is 18K flu deaths (usually flu and pneumonia) in a year only a small number flu is the only cause, a few 100 to low 1000s underlying cause of death and the rest it was present at time of death.
This is what I was trying to say. Reporting on the statistics wasn't accurate to begin with. You can take any data and present it how you want.
COVID is still the far more virulent virus compared to flu, especially to the vulnerable. It cannot even be questioned at this point. Flu has been with us for millennia and the human immune system is pretty adept at dealing with it in a lot of cases. COVID is relatively new and a crapshoot until our immune system adapts fully, which may not be in our lifetimes.
The only way to determine the death tolls from Covid is to analyse years before and years after and look at years during.
The UK has an annual expected death toll of some 500,000 people from all causes, accidental, disease and illnesses, crime and natural causes. Thsee can be extrapolated after some time has passed to determine statistically the likely deaths from a cause like covid.
It doesn't matter if it is covid or flu the deaths should be collected accurately for statistical analysis. As far as I remember the rate of covid deaths were reported inaccurately as they were putting all deaths that had covid associated with them in one group instead of death because of covid, covid as a secondary or even a thirdly cause of death, or covid was present but not the actual cause of death.
True but it can be taken from the actual deaths, my nephews partners almost died from covid and was seriously ill with respiratory and heart problems(physically fit and well beforehand). If he had died it would have been due to covid alone, my mum died in hospital and contracted covid there, her death certificate put down chronic bronchitis as the main cause, then copd, old age and then covid, so she did no die from covid( it probably didn't help). That's my point accurate data gives accurate results.
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There was some refinements of the process but even from the early days they were sorting them for example ONS data from June 2020: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...id19englandandwales/deathsoccurringinjune2020
There are graphs in later publications showing a basic breakdown of classifications and in some cases they included flu with a similar breakdown to compare against involving and underlying.
EDIT: There is also a factor that as time went on less people were dying where COVID was the underlying cause of death as the first few waves got a lot of people who seem to be more susceptible to it than the population average (not just due existing conditions/old age - a subset of the population seem to have a more severe reaction to it than the population average), something which to varying degrees is the case with every disease. Something which was also not well understood in the early days, including by myself, where it was thought that would be seen across a larger number of the population.
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