COVID-19 (Coronavirus) discussion

The entire concept behind vaccines is not that it saves everyone, not that they are perfect, not that they don't cause problems themselves, but they reduce the total mortality of the population.

This requirement that they are absolutely safe is, frankly, ridiculous. I always remember my doctor telling me that ALL medicine is the same - there is ALWAYS a cost.

It's scary, taking a risk by saying yes to any medicine, because it may may kill you and it certainly will change you. But statistically your chances are better if you take it.

Honestly, it seems to me that anti-vaxers are just afraid of making that decision. I sometimes think we would be better off with a Chinese government who would just tell you what to do and be done with all this debate.

Stop doing the thing that everyone does which is labeling everyone who was hesitant about the vaccine as "anti-vaxxers". People recognised that the vast majority of cases resulted in recovery without severe issues, leading them to weigh this against potential long term vaccine effects, and it didn't stop transmission which muddles the risk-benefit analysis even more.

You say the statistics show better a outcome with the vax, but what about the statistics indicating that the vast majority of people experience only mild symptoms or none at all, so why bother with a vaccine at all, I didn't and you won't be able to find someone an unvaccinated person who wish they took it.

Baffling that someone in the UK would advocate for a Chinese authoritarian approach; I bet you're among those who champion 'my body, my choice' yet you'd entertain the idea of government forcing needles into peoples arms
 
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I didn't and you won't be able to find someone an unvaccinated person who wish they took it.

Baffling that someone in the UK would advocate for a Chinese authoritarian approach; I bet you're among those who champion 'my body, my choice' yet you'd entertain the idea of government forcing needles into peoples arms
it is absolutely your choice now. AFAIK no where forces a vaccination record now as it's deemed enough have some protection as it's gonna get.

you are dead wrong about the 1st part tho. I remember people who had refused to have the vaccine begging for it in A&E back in the day and some even made videos to tell others to get jabbed. it was too late for them at that point however for the vaccine.

but I can tell you less than 2 months ago BOTH my aunt and uncle were regretting not having their jabs
 
Stop doing the thing that everyone does which is labeling everyone who was hesitant about the vaccine as "anti-vaxxers". People recognised that the vast majority of cases resulted in recovery without severe issues, leading them to weigh this against potential long term vaccine effects, and it didn't stop transmission which muddles the risk-benefit analysis even more.

You say the statistics show better a outcome with the vax, but what about the statistics indicating that the vast majority of people experience only mild symptoms or none at all, so why bother with a vaccine at all, I didn't and you won't be able to find someone an unvaccinated person who wish they took it.

Baffling that someone in the UK would advocate for a Chinese authoritarian approach; I bet you're among those who champion 'my body, my choice' yet you'd entertain the idea of government forcing needles into peoples arms

You try and argue statistics, whilst admitting that the stats improve the outcome.

They also protect the weakest. Vaccination is very rarely about the individual, it's about the herd. If you only vaccinated the weakest that could be vaccinated, many would still be exposed and suffer greatly. The unvaccinated have ridden on the coat tails of the vaccinated, and will enjoy better outcomes because of them.

To try and illustrate.

If an unvaccinated person catches COVID, who hasn't had it before, their bodies will be slow to respond, and the virus will reach greater loads, meaning they will pass on a greater dose.

If this greater dose hits a vulnerable person, they may not be able to respond fast enough before being overwhelmed.

If they are hit with a smaller dose, they will have much more time to adapt before the virus reaches dangerous levels.

In a vaccinated population, each time the virus is passed on, it will be in small amounts, giving prepared immune systems the best chance to react, but also unvaccinated immune systems more time as well.

In ideal circumstances, this can be so effective that the vaccinated don't ever reach contagious levels (or within one or two transfers it is reduced to that degree). This is where diseases that have been almost wiped out have reached, and are now unfortunately making a comeback, as there's more free pathways through the unvaccinated, allowing the illness to spread in sufficient volume to constantly reach infectious levels.

The herd is there to protect the weakest, but even then the vaccines help even the healthy deal with the illness more effectively and safer. The more people refuse the vaccines, the less effective herd protection becomes.

It was the same thing with masks, they weren't really worn to prevent you from catching COVID, and weren't presented that way officially, but to help prevent you give it to anyone else. There again, people refused to protect others, so they could avoid a slight inconvenience to themselves.
 
You say the statistics show better a outcome with the vax, but what about the statistics indicating that the vast majority of people experience only mild symptoms or none at all, so why bother with a vaccine at all, I didn't and you won't be able to find someone an unvaccinated person who wish they took it.
Pretty sure I'd be a widower if it wasn't for the vaccine.
 
You say the statistics show better a outcome with the vax, but what about the statistics indicating that the vast majority of people experience only mild symptoms or none at all, so why bother with a vaccine at all, I didn't and you won't be able to find someone an unvaccinated person who wish they took it.
Because people are not the same, you appear to be comparing statistics on what would be consider a vulnerable demographic with a demographic that's less vulnerable.

Statistics show a better outcome in demographics that are more vulnerable and people in the demographic that are least vulnerable experience only mild symptoms or none at all, those two things are not mutually exclusive. They're both true, however living in a society comes with an unspoken rule, a rule that says sometimes we should do what's best for society, for the most vulnerable, for those least able to protect themselves. That sometimes we'll be asked, or even choose, to make sacrifices for the betterment of society as a whole.

Living in a society comes with costs and benefits, you don't get to pick and choose. If you moan about the costs while reaping the benefits people will rightly get a little miffed.
 
Because people are not the same, you appear to be comparing statistics on what would be consider a vulnerable demographic with a demographic that's less vulnerable.

Statistics show a better outcome in demographics that are more vulnerable and people in the demographic that are least vulnerable experience only mild symptoms or none at all, those two things are not mutually exclusive. They're both true, however living in a society comes with an unspoken rule, a rule that says sometimes we should do what's best for society, for the most vulnerable, for those least able to protect themselves. That sometimes we'll be asked, or even choose, to make sacrifices for the betterment of society as a whole.

Living in a society comes with costs and benefits, you don't get to pick and choose. If you moan about the costs while reaping the benefits people will rightly get a little miffed.
whilst I do agree with the above................ i will also add that whilst undoubtedly covid hits harder the older you are or if you have other co morbidities , and therefore the benefits of the vaccine are not as great, whilst the risks may still be similar if you are young and fairly fit.......................... personally I believe it is still over all beneficial for most people to have the jab for themselves even if they are not interested in anyone outside of their bubble.

My wife set up a covid lab for sequencing and surveillance and i worked on a site which did covid genome analysis . whilst i personally was absolutely not on the front line i know some who were and there were plenty who were sick who you would not necessarily expect to be........ and there was a point where even when huge percentages of the population were jabbed up, the majority of those in serious trouble were still unvaccinated, or only just vaccinated (my understanding is a number of people thought it was a good idea to go and queue up to get a jab once they actually started with covid, which is too late for the jab to help, but utterly boneheaded and selfish to spread it to others around them)
 
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It was Tottenham vs Bolton when Fabrice Muamba had a cardiac arrest and one of the Spurs fans was a cardiologist ran on to help. His heart stopped for 78 minutes but they got him back. I was at that game and it was a very surreal experience. I've been at 2 games since where they have stopped the game due to medical emergencies in the crowd and I'm not even a season ticket holder, go to maybe 4-6 games a year.
Very lucky guy

Survival can be as high as 90% if treatment starts within the first minutes after sudden cardiac arrest. The rate drops by about 10% each minute longer. Sudden cardiac arrest can be fatal if it lasts longer than eight minutes without CPR. Brain damage can happen after just five minutes
 
As a general note I highly recommend doing a first aid course if you get the chance - you might not remember how to do all of it, etc. but it is a useful framework to be able to draw on and could save a life.
Unless you come across some idiot who tries to take you to court for undressing them.

Take this with a big grain of salt but when i got trained in basic fist-aid the trainer told us a story of how platform staff helped a lady who'd collapsed and how they had to slightly unbutton an item of clothing only for the lady to try taking him to court later for exposing her in public.
 
I came across an RTA a few years ago and had to do an ABC and recovery position but at least the patient was breathing if not concious initially so no chest compressions etc. required. A chap knocked off his bike


Working on construction you get trained for the lot.
 
Unless you come across some idiot who tries to take you to court for undressing them.

Take this with a big grain of salt but when i got trained in basic fist-aid the trainer told us a story of how platform staff helped a lady who'd collapsed and how they had to slightly unbutton an item of clothing only for the lady to try taking him to court later for exposing her in public.

I dunno about that aspect (removing clothing) but you are generally covered legally (i.e. if you crack ribs doing CPR) as long as anything you are doing can be justified.
 
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Which is great but that doesn't stop the stress and worry when you get accused of something like that. In the age, where you are pretty much guilty until proven innocent :(
 
I think there is some legal action going on against either the NHS or government by front line staff. Because many have become disabled because of covid. They now have symptoms of long covid.


There is also a lot of kids suffering from long covid symptoms. It's a specialist area of long covid, as many parents are representing their kids.


 
I dunno about that aspect (removing clothing) but you are generally covered legally (i.e. if you crack ribs doing CPR) as long as anything you are doing can be justified.
Generally and what was then British Rail would back you all the way and cover any legal costs if it got that far, as i would expect from any company who has first-aiders. I guess even the courts would strongly favour the first-aider.

The trainers story was in response to being asked about the force being used in CPR possibly cracking ribs and where the line is between saving a life and potential harm, it was more of a; Some people can be dicks but generally unless you do something really, really wrong, you're OK but it's something to bear in mind that some people could chance their arm with compensation claims, some are just ungrateful, some people are just not nice so don't take it personally if someone comes too and turns nasty.
 
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