Again, it works both ways.
Just because you've convinced yourself you're right, doesn't make it so.
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COVID-19 (Coronavirus) discussion
- Thread starter ThundyCat
- Start date
Just because you've convinced yourself you're right, doesn't make it so.
What you trying to prove with this?
New study updates evidence on rare heart condition after covid vaccination - BMJ Group
Number of cases low and predominantly mild Young males at highest risk shortly after second dose, suggesting longer dosing intervals might be beneficial Findings must be considered alongside overall benefits of vaccination A study published by The BMJ today provides an up to date summary of...bmjgroup.com
Keep ignoring the ones against your view thougj
Bullet points of article:
- Number of cases low and predominantly mild
- Young males at highest risk shortly after second dose, suggesting longer dosing intervals might be beneficial
- Findings must be considered alongside overall benefits of vaccination
Thank you, for those interested, this is just an abstract, not very detailed. Someone wanting more info:
Reports from 2022, 2023 and 2024 (the one the abstract is for):
The rates for these cardiovascular injuries seem to mostly peak in the 2024 report, with 2022 seemingly showing no significant difference (I've been focusing on the general Actute Cardiovascular Injury rate, since it incorporates a lot), and 2023 generally showing nothing significant either. 2024 seems to show a large increase, interestingly, the rate of these events seem to increase in general in the population going by the Events in the previous year tables (basically if you had a heart issue the year before getting the vaccine, which interestingly, if you were in the previously matched Unvac group, would remove you from the dataset as you now have the vaccine). Depending on the source of the information, the rate sometimes greatly increased (especially those becoming vaccinated in some of the datasets). I would personally interpret some of this as people with heart conditions, or at risk, being strongly recommended the vaccine (as they are) to help avoid potential complications from Covid 19, however it won't suddenly cure their heart condition.
Something definitely changes as time goes on, considering that these vaccines were released in Dec 20, you'd expect most of this to start showing immediately from the 22 report onwards, instead it starts coming up properly in 2024. Remembering that many of these incidents are only being measured if they occur within 365 days of the vaccine being received, it suggests a change in the population getting vaccinated. As they mention in the report, seeking medical attention could well be one of them, if you notice a bit of a heart flutter not long after getting a vaccine, you're more likely to report it than in general. People often do not seek medical attention swiftly, expecting things to pass (and for the most part, they do), a narrowing population of people refusing a vaccine are less likely to reach out to official medical channels. Also, when getting a vaccine that has a lot of people yelling about how it causes heart conditions, you're more likely to go and get things checked out even if minor, after having it. Paying more attention will find more cases in general.
Not all the datasets report increases either, in some cases, the data is all over the place, some show significant reductions, whilst others show large increases, for the same condition. For some conditions, other investigations found background levels for the conditions in unvaccinated groups were similar to the vaccinated results pfizer were finding.
From what I understand, there should still be a final report to be released, which will hopefully include more analysis (maybe it's been released, but I would imagine giving the release timings, we'd expect it this year).
Not a completely unpleasant way to spend a part of an evening, always nice to try and brush off vague remembrances from university.
Black and white....
"However, the researchers warn that, in general, the evidence is of low certainty...."
It's definitely black and white that the evidence is grey.
I think it's worth pointing out that, these are matched pairs, so you would hope people who were vaccinated and had an existing heart condition, were paired with someone who was unvaccinated but with the same heart condition - would seem a large clanger in their study if they hadn't done that!
You didn't address this to me but I'd never say anything online that I wouldn't say to someone face to face.
Nope.
I'm sorry to hear that.
My wife had covid before the vaccinations were around, she has no immune system and it put her in bed for a fortnight. The strains were reported to get stronger and yet, after a vaccination, even with her severely compromised immune system, the second time she got it, she was in bed for a week. She has regular boosters and yet each time she's had covid, she's been in a bad way. I am utterly convinced that if she hadn't had these jabs then she'd be dead by now.
They don't literally pair people up with one other person who's virtually identical to them. The unvaccinated people were usually matched with more than 1 vaccinated.
Across a large dataset the idea is it basically comes out in the wash, we're dealing with millions of people. I mean you could read the reports yourself, but let me continue doing it for you.
At least in 22, the report shows similar figures for obesity, they also checked for those in care and those who had cancer. There didn't appear to be records on heart condition. They do mention that health details aren't correctly calculated (hospital visits etc) as they didn't have access to that data. So probably best not to read much into it, since some just isn't reported there (or it's identical).
One aspect that did seem to have large differences, perhaps unsurprisingly, was the unvaccinated group had been tested for COVID less.
The 2024 report continues to show the vaccinated get more COVID tests than unvaccinated, but now the healthcare data seems to be working. And in support of the suggested that the unvaccinated don't seek medical assistance to the same degree, their rates for primary care are lower (GP etc). Interestingly the hospitalisation and emergency room rates seem similar, so when the **** hits the fan, they do still get it sorted, but for things like the minor heart conditions that make up most of the cases forming the difference, they probably wouldn't bother. The odd heart flutter isn't going to send someone who doesn't visit their gp often, to the emergency room.
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They did do quite a good job of limiting the number of vaccinated matched to unvaccinated to be honest.
The issue I have with the assumption that unvaccinated people just don't get health care, is that we can all remember very early on (or at least I can) of cardiologists sounding the alarm of seeing people post vaccination.
5m unvaccinated ended up being excluded due to getting vaccinated. Median is a bad type of average in this case, it just means some were matched multiple times.
Your memory doesn't beat scientific investigation.
And again, it's there in black and white, the unvaccinated got primary care less than the vaccinated in each dataset that recorded it. It's not an assumption, it's straight up data. The smallest difference was about 50% (about 400k vac, 600k unva) more likely to have not been to primary care, the largest difference in a dataset was closer to 150% more people hadn't been to a primary care practitioner (500 to 1300), perhaps depressingly, I believe that last group was kids, who don't get to make the choice themselves if they go to their gp etc.
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To be fair, that's only the never attended a primary care, for 1, or 2+ the gap is much much closer, so I don't think it can explain the larger disparity in figures for the complete cohort.
I've seen this argued both ways, either they were healthier and thus didn't need to see a GP, or as you say they ignored warning signs. The proofs in the pudding though, we'll see what the latest heart attack rates are at the total population level, not many unvaccinated people in the general populace.
Personally I blame China as being the source of this and many ills.
The second strain hit harder than the first and that was after she was vaccinated. Seeing how bad she was first time, we are absolutely convinced that the vaccine did exactly what it was intended to do and reduced the effects.
To be fair, that's only the never attended a primary care, for 1, or 2+ the gap is much much closer, so I don't think it can explain the larger disparity in figures for the complete cohort.
I've seen this argued both ways, either they were healthier and thus didn't need to see a GP, or as you say they ignored warning signs. The proofs in the pudding though, we'll see what the latest heart attack rates are at the total population level, not many unvaccinated people in the general populace.
There's still pretty massive gaps there... and this data was taken *before* the vaccine was given. If they were genuinely healthier, you'd expect the hospitalisation and emergency room figures to reflect a similar difference between Vac and Unvac as Primary care (healthier people don't need those services either), but there it's far more similar. Suggesting they don't go to the doctor for the "small" stuff, but still attend for the serious situations, and still end up in serious situations on par with the vaccinated.
Not a particular good advert for preventative care surprisingly.
(the main datasets are mean ages of 39 and 46 I think it was, so accidents are a seriously large factor in hospital visits).
Soldato
- Joined
- 23 May 2006
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whilst I accept there are incredibly minor risks with the vaccines they pale into significance the risks of COVID and long COVID imo. luckily we are now at a point of "you do you" if you don't want a jab don't have one, however at least self isolate if you get it.... and spouting that the vacine is worse than the disease is dangerous nonsense.New study updates evidence on rare heart condition after covid vaccination - BMJ Group
Number of cases low and predominantly mild Young males at highest risk shortly after second dose, suggesting longer dosing intervals might be beneficial Findings must be considered alongside overall benefits of vaccination A study published by The BMJ today provides an up to date summary of...
Keep ignoring the ones against your view thougj
my aunt and uncle both got very sick with it in their 80s. it's partly on them. they only had 1 jab and didn't like the side effects and as they are house bound didn't bother to get any more. their travelling hairdresser went to their house before Xmas and as she was packing up casually told them she felt rough as she had covid.
both my aunt and uncle caught it off her and almost ended up in hospital. despite what some claim COVID is still nasty for many who get it esp if they don't have much immunity (natural or otherwise) against it.
I think people forget how overwhelmed hospitals were before there was a vaccine. sadly it does not stop COVID but it's hard to sensibly argue it does not help keep people out of hospital or worse.
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Based on what? For both of your statements.
We don't see outcomes for the data. You can end up in hospital because you've got early stage of cancer or you've got terminal cancer. Plenty of conditions will see you end in hospital whether you've caught them early or late, but when they were caught will determine your outcome, but you'll be in hospital at the same rate either way.
Are accidents a seriously large factor in hospitalisation? Emergency room, perhaps but not for sure, but actual admittance?
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The version of covid I had, BQ.1.1 appeared in the UK in October '22 (I got it in December of that year) avoided all known vaccines at the time.
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Omicron BQ.1.1 and XBB.1 unprecedentedly escape broadly neutralizing antibodies elicited by prototype vaccination - PMC
Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) Omicron subvariants have seriously attacked the antibody barrier established by natural infection and/or vaccination, especially the recently emerged BQ.1.1 and XBB.1. However, crucial ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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