Some Trusts did enforce vaccination on their staff - but mostly happened in the care home sector. People lost jobs because of it.
COVID-19 (Coronavirus) discussion
- Thread starter ThundyCat
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So you think telling people they sit in their bedrooms all day seem to be rather sheltered, calling people childish, that they're closed minded, brainless idiots, that they're kids, deluded. That they're brainless, acting like they're a big man by threatening someone, that they sit in a smelly bedroom, live in a bubble, that people lack empathy are not insults?
They shouldn't have told you that you had the placebo before the trial was completed. That's bad practice and can affect the result.
I said kids as they just laugh at a post rather than reply. I said I can see if you dont go out and follow media narrative then the POV shared is expected. I never said brainless, infact that was directed at me. Deluded was used in the context of the post I replied to. Didnt threaten anyone, just amazes me how different people are when talking f2f rather than behind a keyboard. Lack empathy is not an insult at all, nor is living in a bubble. Bedroom, well if that offends you then maybe its true.
Your post kind of proves my point if anything. Are you in some bubble of never hearing anything negative?? (and never opened a dictionary)
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Still seems taboo, but that might change now Trump is back in office. However, it was the conclusion of the EU moratorium on the pandemic that the virus is man made and likely originated from the Wuhan laboratory.
Soldato
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in this case it was kind of required tho right, because
1) it would have been bad having people thinking they were vaccinated when they were not and
2) giving people the jab twice when there was a shortage of them, combined with the side effects of the vaccine would have been at best wasteful and pointless and at worst medically negligent.
Due to the nature of covid - which people seem to be forgetting was deadly and life altering for so many people when the population had no natural immunity to it at all - things were handled differently than other vaccines..... but it doesnt mean it was untested.
Also complaining about the vaccine whilst at the same time complaining about the side effects of lockdown (which are very real esp for children) is hypocritical given it was the vaccine which helped us get out of continual lockdowns. (not aimed at you but is something a lot seem to do)
with hindsite could things have been done differently? sure!. ideally schools maybe could have stayed open (if you could get enough teachers happy to enter the firing line), and perhaps outdoor jobs and socialising outdoors could have been relaxed a little due to accepting some risk to keep the mental health of people better....
but people had to deal with the facts they had at the time and with an NHS which was at a very real risk of total collapse there was not much leeway in the system (hence horrible examples of people dying before the ambulance could get to them - because the ambulances were sometimes taking many hrs to get there)
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Yes, and you seem to be getting offended on others behalf, which is a bit weird in itself.
Tells everyone how none of them were direct insults only to directly insult someone, good one.
Where did i say i was offended?
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Well that comment was time bound on posts before itTells everyone how none of the were direct insults only to directly insult someone, good one.
Where did i say i was offended?
work it out. How is asking someone if they in a bubble a insult. Dictionary is evidence as you dont understand the meaning of deluded.As reported by the Beeb..
The CIA on Saturday offered a new assessment on the origin of the Covid outbreak, saying the coronavirus is "more likely" to have leaked from a Chinese lab than to have come from animals.
Make of that what one will.
Bullpoop. I added this word after having written the rest of my reply out, because it simply seemed very appropriate after re-reading what I'd typed.
Can you please link the WHO saying that there's a 1 in 300 risk of developing MS after a covid vaccine. That's an absolutely massive claim, and a huge rate of MS. Considering the MS rate in the UK is 1 in 400, I'd have to guess someone pulled those numbers out of a body cavity (don't want to say it's you, maybe you've just been taken in).
I've done some searches and can't find anything. I've found a couple of bits that say that they've found MS that seemed to be likely triggered by the vaccine, but in tiny numbers (less than 10 patients altogether). I mean they've found that COVID itself seems to trigger MS, but only in serious cases, and only then in 0.026% of people after a serious case of COVID.
Bored now.
Man of Honour
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I know this wasn't to me, I thought I'd add a reply on the topic.
Although I had the 2 jabs needed to travel, if i were able to go back in time I'd probably not have it. Personal choice that's all, and from the data we have now it's clear that for someone like me it wasn't really necessary. I've been labelled an antivaxer, yet my kids have had their MMR jabs as children and the top up jabs they needed and I am perfectly happy for them to have it. No flu jabs though as again I don't really feel they're justified for healthy people or people with no medical issues. The reason I don't mind the kid's inoculations is that they're well researched, been around for several decades, in spite of the MMR debunked link with autism but there was a massive controversy around that - had I had children at the time I'd have been more cautious and opted for the individual jabs. However, as time went on and more intensive research and evaluations and testing it was categorised as absolutely safe. That controversy was in the late 90s / early 2000s. So over a dozen years and further evidence fully debunked and disproved the issue and uncovered lots of conflicts of interests and financial and manipulation of data for pecuniary advantage of those involved.
i think it's fair to be patient and understand people's scepticism with such a short roll out, but also with the significant disagreements between medical professionals, and experts. There was enough doubt cast to make people take things to extremes but that's normal behaviour - I mean extremes on both sides are not helpful - and the coercion wasn't good. Let's face it society was in a bad place during the pandemic.
They focused on:
- Coercion, not persuasion – Instead of educating and convincing people, some governments used social engineering (especially with the use of social media)
- Censorship of debate – Social media platforms and governments suppressed some discussions about vaccine risks - this is now well documented, and also the number of experts suggesting there are more risks than first advised, although agree it was safe enough and worth giving to the elderly and people with compromised immune systems.
- Division and scapegoating – Some leaders and media figures framed the unvaccinated as irresponsible or dangerous, fuelling social hostility - we can see this still apparent in this thread.
- Blaming a Minority – People were wrongly blamed for societal problems such as the unvaccinated were often blamed for ongoing COVID outbreaks, even when transmission was happening among the vaccinated too.
- Government & Media Narrative Control – Open debate about vaccine efficacy, mandates, and risks was often shut down, with dissenting voices silenced or labelled as conspiracy theorists.
- Social Exclusion – The unvaccinated were banned from travel, events, and even some workplaces, leading to a "second-class citizen" feeling - sure, it was only temporary, but at the time it feels pretty oppressive.
- Coercion Over Choice – Instead of open discussion, the message was: “Get vaccinated or face serious consequences,” which left many feeling like they were forced rather than convinced.
As I've said before, I think the lockdown and the vaccine are not the big issue here, it's the narrative and behaviours around it and how society was manipulated and divided which has caused more issues than not.
Some of the positives:
+ Remote or hybrid working is now more normal ( though Government is pushing the rhetoric of being back in the office causing tension again)
+ Increased awareness of government overreach
+ Bigger push of medical transparency and autonomy (informed consent, assisted dying etc...)
+ nhs reform pressure increase
+ revival of local and independent media after loss of trust from mainstream media - more diverse debates and perspectives
Some of the negatives:
- increased polarisation and distrust (in everything, from covid as we can see in this thread, to Brexit, foreign policy, the economy etc...)
- long term economic damage (albeit that could be argued it was already happening before covid, but it's clear the covid did set us back regardless) - UK was one of the slowest post-pandemic recoveries (rising inflation, debt and failing small businesses)
- NHS backlog and health crisis
- Normalisation of government control
- Mental health issues skyrocketed - increased rate of suicide rates worldwide and depression and anxiety levels (but of course we were dealing with an international pandemic, there was always going to be casualties, but this is largely ignored and too much focus was on covid itself)
I'm trying to be balanced in my thinking - yes I know it's not perfect arguments nor is it necessarily 100% accurate, these are a blend of personal perspectives and various articles over the past 4-5 years that have made their way into public light. I may be misremembering exactly, but i feel comfortable enough that it's not too far off.
Ultimately, the world got hit hard by a pandemic and there were always going to be causalities (not necessarily by death) nor are there any perfect answers or rights or wrongs. People had to make the best decision based on the information they had at the time, chastising anyone whether vaccine sceptical or evangelical is not healthy nor fair. There were a lot of moving parts and some people like the news and social media were complicit in adding fuel to the fire. I'd like to believe that most people had good intentions, but on a global scale it's probably fair to say there was a lot of social engineering and manipulation. Or perhaps I'm a conspiracy theorist...
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I don't really want to close this thread, so can some of you grow up please?
Also @Ayahuasca if you keep just laughing at posts without adding any content then I'll gladly remove your ability to react to posts.
Also @Ayahuasca if you keep just laughing at posts without adding any content then I'll gladly remove your ability to react to posts.
@Maccy I'm following the debate and find his responses funny that's all. Why would emoji's be policed and I've not seen this threat made publically to others who regularly use them against the same posters all the time on here across multiple threads?
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We've removed some people's abilities to react to post for exactly that reason.
It looks like trolling to me, so pack it in please.
It isn't trolling, it's a genuine response to his surface level knowledge on these topics. Anyway, I'll refrain as it's clearly deeply affecting him.
@Freefaller
You immediately open up with showing an ignorance to how vaccination works though. You say someone like you probably didn't need it. Again, the whole point is a sufficient % of the population gets vaccinated, to protect everyone. Being someone who likely wouldn't have suffered much from covid, makes you someone who's even less likely to have suffered from the vaccines, so the vaccine is still going to be safer than the illness.
The way you set out your arguments, put forward great points etc, clearly show you are not a fool, and come across at least as well educated (it can be harder to pick out intelligence vs education, but I'd guess at least reasonably intelligent as well). However, as pointed out, even an educated, intelligent person, has misunderstood vaccination.
This is why there was coercion to take the vaccine, because the public, and social media exposed public especially, because simply trying to educate (which they did try to do, Witty and Vallance (sp?) did a huge amount to try and explain what's going on. However, in the end, most people, even well educated and intelligent people, can struggle when it comes to specialisms that aren't their own, such as disease, statistics, vaccines etc.
Personal anecdotes are given huge weight by humans, because for so long in our evolution, that's been one of the best ways to learn, however they are dreadful in these situations, especially since we have a horrible habit of linking things that are completely unlinked anyway, that's the whole point of the studies. However, as we can see here, misinformation spreads and sticks in peoples minds so easily, just like the claim I questioned above about the vaccines supposedly causing 1 in 300 to develop MS (a rate higher than than 1 in 400 sufferers in the UK!). There are times when people just aren't reliable enough to be allowed to make their own decisions, and pandemics are frankly one of them, especially when vaccines rely on often 90%+ of the population being vaccinated, I believe COVID, due to it's ease of transmission, required a higher %.
You immediately open up with showing an ignorance to how vaccination works though. You say someone like you probably didn't need it. Again, the whole point is a sufficient % of the population gets vaccinated, to protect everyone. Being someone who likely wouldn't have suffered much from covid, makes you someone who's even less likely to have suffered from the vaccines, so the vaccine is still going to be safer than the illness.
The way you set out your arguments, put forward great points etc, clearly show you are not a fool, and come across at least as well educated (it can be harder to pick out intelligence vs education, but I'd guess at least reasonably intelligent as well). However, as pointed out, even an educated, intelligent person, has misunderstood vaccination.
This is why there was coercion to take the vaccine, because the public, and social media exposed public especially, because simply trying to educate (which they did try to do, Witty and Vallance (sp?) did a huge amount to try and explain what's going on. However, in the end, most people, even well educated and intelligent people, can struggle when it comes to specialisms that aren't their own, such as disease, statistics, vaccines etc.
Personal anecdotes are given huge weight by humans, because for so long in our evolution, that's been one of the best ways to learn, however they are dreadful in these situations, especially since we have a horrible habit of linking things that are completely unlinked anyway, that's the whole point of the studies. However, as we can see here, misinformation spreads and sticks in peoples minds so easily, just like the claim I questioned above about the vaccines supposedly causing 1 in 300 to develop MS (a rate higher than than 1 in 400 sufferers in the UK!). There are times when people just aren't reliable enough to be allowed to make their own decisions, and pandemics are frankly one of them, especially when vaccines rely on often 90%+ of the population being vaccinated, I believe COVID, due to it's ease of transmission, required a higher %.
Not "bullpoop" as you put it. The study was on the official WHO website 18 months ago ; not sure if it's still there or not but unsurprisingly various media outlets didn't pick up on it as it doesn't fit their narrative. Or what about the EU study conducted by the European Society of Cardiologists ? If memory serves me right I think they had over 50,000 test subects and found there was a 1 in 35 risk of significant heart damage after administration of the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines. Again, very little media coverage. Synopses of these studies were posted on social media sites eg. Facebook but kept on getting deleted, shadowbanned etc ( which Zuckerburg recently acknowledged was "forced" on him by the Biden administration and other western governments ). Believe what you will, I could care less. I just find it troubling that we live in a time of misinformation where people aren't given the truth to make proper informed choices.
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