COVID-19 (Coronavirus) discussion

[Unseul]

Not "bullpoop" as you put it. The study was on the official WHO website 18 months ago ; not sure if it's still there or not but unsurprisingly various media outlets didn't pick up on it as it doesn't fit their narrative. Or what about the EU study conducted by the European Society of Cardiologists ? If memory serves me right I think they had over 50,000 test subects and found there was a 1 in 35 risk of significant heart damage after administration of the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines. Again, very little media coverage. Synopses of these studies were posted on social media sites eg. Facebook but kept on getting deleted, shadowbanned etc ( which Zuckerburg recently acknowledged was "forced" on him by the Biden administration and other western governments ). Believe what you will, I could care less. I just find it troubling that we live in a time of misinformation where people aren't given the truth to make proper informed choices.

Stop using memory, start giving me links. Same with the cardiologist rubbish, give me a link. You make the claim, back it up, or have it called bullpoop. 1 in 35 significant heart damage. I'm amazed anyone has survived the vaccine at this rate!

The rate of MS in the UK is 1 in 400. If 1 in 300 vaccinated people got MS, then we've managed to miss a load of MS sufferers, since there'd be more cases of MS than reported at the moment and every single case in the UK of MS, is likely due to the COVID vaccine. So anyone who had it before the vaccines must have been joking.

 

[Freefaller]

@Unseul

Yes but the papers and debates since have suggested that vaccinating the ill, comorbidity and aged would have been the best policy. Why would a slew of experts suggest that now 4 years later if there wasn't any merit to it?

I'm not advocating for herd immunity as that's a can of worms But the vaccine didn't stop transmission or getting ill it was primarily to reduce the severity, lower viral load and the chance of hospitalisation - at least that's how it was sold. Is that wrong? Isn't that what the percentage roll of our vaccine supposed to do - trigger herd immunity? Surely it's better to protect those at risk as a priority?

I had my 2 jabs (didn't get the 3rd) because I was more interested in travelling (thanks to remote working) and being away from the uk for a few months than being stuck in it. People in this thread or the previous thread i think it was absolutely gave me the 2 barrels and scathed me for daring to leave the country - but I jumped through all the hoops.

I hope you are right that the impact of the vaccine on someone like myself (and my wife, not my kids we didn't give them the covid jab) is lower - it's impossible to prove really. I did suffer serious MH issues (which thankfully i'm well over now and never felt better!), so I didn't get away symptom-free unfortunately.

 

[xaldub]

Stop using memory, start giving me links. Same with the cardiologist rubbish, give me a link. You make the claim, back it up, or have it called bullpoop. 1 in 35 significant heart damage. I'm amazed anyone has survived the vaccine at this rate!

The rate of MS in the UK is 1 in 400. If 1 in 300 vaccinated people got MS, then we've managed to miss a load of MS sufferers, since there'd be more cases of MS than reported at the moment and every single case in the UK of MS, is likely due to the COVID vaccine. So anyone who had it before the vaccines must have been joking.

Go and do your own research - stop being lazy.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Weird there’s no other vaccine injury schemes setup by governments

The Vaccine Damage Payment has been going way before Covid, it wasn't made up for Covid.
I know people who have applied way way before Covid jabs and I know of at least 3 people who have claimed because of the Covid jab.
Only one got the payment because they met the criteria.

Vaccine Damage Payment

A Vaccine Damage Payment is a one-off tax-free payment of £120,000 if you're severely disabled as a result of vaccination against certain diseases - what you'll get, eligibility and applying.

www.gov.uk

The UK had an existing no-fault compensation scheme for vaccines created 22 March 1979, and which incorporated covid-19 vaccines from 31 December 2020. This scheme was created under national legislation, the Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979 and the Vaccine Damage Payments (Specified Disease) Order 2020.


Once again stop spouting complete garbage.
Please read it and say you got it wrong, it's there in black and white.

They shouldn't have told you that you had the placebo before the trial was completed. That's bad practice and can affect the result.

I was told after the trials.
I made the assumption I had the placebo because of my comorbidities, the clinicians didn't tell me that.
I was told after the trial so I didn't think I was protected and I made sure I had it on Jan 7th 2021.

 

[Unseul]

@Unseul

Yes but the papers and debates since have suggested that vaccinating the ill, comorbidity and aged would have been the best policy. Why would a slew of experts suggest that now 4 years later if there wasn't any merit to it?

I'm not advocating for herd immunity as that's a can of worms But the vaccine didn't stop transmission or getting ill it was primarily to reduce the severity, lower viral load and the chance of hospitalisation - at least that's how it was sold. Is that wrong? Isn't that what the percentage roll of our vaccine supposed to do - trigger herd immunity? Surely it's better to protect those at risk as a priority?

I had my 2 jabs (didn't get the 3rd) because I was more interested in travelling (thanks to remote working) and being away from the uk for a few months than being stuck in it. People in this thread or the previous thread i think it was absolutely gave me the 2 barrels and scathed me for daring to leave the country - but I jumped through all the hoops.

I hope you are right that the impact of the vaccine on someone like myself (and my wife, not my kids we didn't give them the covid jab) is lower - it's impossible to prove really. I did suffer serious MH issues (which thankfully i'm well over now and never felt better!), so I didn't get away symptom-free unfortunately.

Links to the experts please .

Vaccines don't stop illness, they never have (though they can reduce it to no symptoms, I guess some would mix the terms and class that as no illness). However your description is mostly correct. I'd add, if you have a lower viral load, you're less likely to get significantly ill. You will also then only pass on a smaller load while infectious, meaning whoever catches it from you, will also suffer less, if they are also vaccinated, they may even kill it off before becoming infectious themselves, so it can prevent transmission, this is how MMR works, transmission is reduced to 0 after one or two jumps. Regardless, even if transmission always occurred, you protect the most vulnerable, by them receiving a far smaller load to start. Even as a healthy woman (better immune systems than men on average), if they'd not been vaccinated, they'd be passing on a larger load to someone else, putting that person (and themselves) at greater risk. That's the point, a healthy vaccinated person protects the vulnerable, it's not about protecting themselves. Social contract stuff.

Herd immunity isn't can of worms, in any mainly human to human transmissible disease, it's the whole point of vaccines.

It's not impossible to prove. It's basically the most studied vaccine in the world at this point. Sure there's others that have been given in greater number, but that's not "studied" that's just volume. Covid had absolutely wild datasets, tens of millions etc, all closely studied (the studies didn't stop at release, and still haven't).

Go and do your own research - stop being lazy.

You made the claims, you back it up, it's not upto me to try and prove your claims. You got those figures from somewhere (1 in 300, 1 in 35) where did they come from? Link that if you can't find the actual WHO report, or the paper from the EU cardiologists...

 

[iamtheoneneo]

No flu jabs though as again I don't really feel they're justified for healthy people or people with no medical issues.

Flu jabs are great in curbing infection (surprise), everyone really should be getting them. I don't but I know I should. I got the flu last year (like actual flu, not just a bad cold) and it knocked me out for a solid week. Times that by at least 10 million a year and that is a lot of lost economic activity and increased pressure on health services.

in spite of the MMR debunked link with autism but there was a massive controversy around that . However, as time went on and more intensive research and evaluations and testing it was categorised as absolutely safe. That controversy was in the late 90s / early 2000s. So over a dozen years and further evidence fully debunked and disproved the issue and uncovered lots of conflicts of interests and financial and manipulation of data for pecuniary advantage of those involved.

Well not really. Andrew Wakefield's work was well and truly discredited the moment it was released. If you actually read the papers they are disgustingly inaccurate, based on weak sample sizes with a large attempt to pin the vaccine on pre-existing conditions that were present in many of the individuals .. It honestly is staggering that it gained so much traction and is a discredit to human intelligence that certain individuals believe it to this very day. He is a fraud of the highest order.

i think it's fair to be patient and understand people's scepticism with such a short roll out, but also with the significant disagreements between medical professionals, and experts.

That would be fine, but it became a blind leading the blind situation. A great many people were talking about it whilst having absolutely zero medical or biochemistry knowledge. Some choose to trust them over a medical professional that had decades of experience and knowledge. That's absolutely mental.
People also forget that pandemic warnings were being broadcast for years before Covid but nobody cared. Yes it was a short roll out, but your forgetting that work on a pandemic style vaccination was already under way years before COVID - it was just accelerated significantly because of COVID. Again its not a surprise that in a situation where the economy shuts down, governments and people in power are more inclined to pump money into finding a solution.

 

[Rroff]

1 in 35 significant heart damage. I'm amazed anyone has survived the vaccine at this rate!

I couldn't say what ratios but there was a big up tick 2020-2022 around my circle of acquaintances of people developing significant heart problems or dying from such, seems to have dropped off since then. A certain amount were medically connected to COVID itself and some likely due to lifestyle changes over the lockdowns but some were almost certainly linked to the vaccines IMO.

 

[Simon]

I couldn't say what ratios but there was a big up tick 2020-2022 around my circle of acquaintances of people developing significant heart problems or dying from such, seems to have dropped off since then. A certain amount were medically connected to COVID itself and some likely due to lifestyle changes over the lockdowns but some were almost certainly linked to the vaccines IMO.

Apparently that is confirmation bias

 

[Unseul]

I couldn't say what ratios but there was a big up tick 2020-2022 around my circle of acquaintances of people developing significant heart problems or dying from such, seems to have dropped off since then. A certain amount were medically connected to COVID itself and some likely due to lifestyle changes over the lockdowns but some were almost certainly linked to the vaccines IMO.

Based on what was it linked to the vaccine? A small amount across the country probably were, but I don't know about you, but I had covid at least twice, and was vaccinated. I suspect most people had covid at least once (and I know it's still going around), why would it not be more likely that the disease caused the issues, rather than the vaccine? The vaccine doesn't mean you simply aren't effected by the disease.

 

[Rroff]

Based on what was it linked to the vaccine? A small amount across the country probably were, but I don't know about you, but I had covid at least twice, and was vaccinated. I suspect most people had covid at least once (and I know it's still going around), why would it not be more likely that the disease caused the issues, rather than the vaccine? The vaccine doesn't mean you simply aren't effected by the disease.

I know some almost certainly didn't have COVID before due to testing and/or their isolation and/or due to testing for the post-mortem.

 

[Unseul]

I know some almost certainly didn't have COVID before due to testing and/or their isolation and/or due to testing for the post-mortem.

Heart damage is a long term result, testing negative for covid in the post morten wouldn't have mean it wasn't a covid infection that caused the damage. Covid testing in the early days was also rather haphazard if I recall, requiring you to drive to the test centres etc, a long way from simply having the at home covid tests (quite a few didn't have easy access to those either for a while, unless in a relevant field, and then, doing the test right wasn't acheiveable by all).

The reason I question this, is basically how extensive the testing is of the vaccines. If they were as careful as you made out, they are still probably more likely to have died from heart disease from any other cause than the vaccine. Yes, it's possible it was the vaccine, just very very unlikely.

And again, personal anecdotes, is just a terrible way to make any sort of judgement on something like this.

 

[GGizmo]

I think mainly covid itself causes heart problems. One of the major symptoms of long covid is tachycardia. This can go on for years.

In my own situation, soon after getting covid I started having tachycardia. My heart rate going up 150bpm when I could still walk. Now it goes to 100bpm daily and I'm literally in bed 24/7.

I've has a heart monitor and they said it didn't detect anything. I've had a ct scan which didn't see anything. I'm due to have an echocardiogram within 6 weeks.

Prior to covid I never had any heart issues.

PS I suspect it's causing tachycardia because covid can disrupt the autonomic system of the body, primarily via the vagus nerve. So anything our bodies do automatically can be disrupted, even breathing.

 

[danswan]

Interesting reading, this thread. Polarised is definitely the description.

There's very few in the middle-ground on this or anything these days it seems. But really that's just the vocal ones we hear from. In most cases nearly all the silent majority between don't really hold strong views, and have to contend with two polar opposites shouting at them extremely loudly to try to bend them to their will.

Generally speaking, I think this majority fall into one of two categories:

Those who either follow what their peers and/or the media are suggesting (sheep), or
Those who operate on a 'wait and see' basis (sceptics).

Neither of these groups are likely to do a huge amount of research, they have 'better' things to do. So when people tell them they should read scientific papers, or do their research, they are just going to smile and nod.

Personally I'm a sceptical sheep. I had one jab because I wanted to go on holiday that year, and it was required. I didn't and don't hold any strong beliefs, but I didn't follow that up with any more jabs, mostly because people constantly telling me I have to do something makes me determined to do the opposite. Not saying that's right (or wrong tbh), but it's honest.

I was more cautious with my children, and neither got a jab. The only logic being I wasn't scared of them getting covid, and you can't turn the clock back and 'unjab' them.

Not sure why I posted, maybe just to get my MM post count up

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Those who either follow what their peers and/or the media are suggesting (sheep)

I'm really offended by that.
I'm still working in a hospital dealing with Covid cases and many more in here work within the NHS knowing what actually happened and didn't get their info from You Tube.

The CT'ers are still spouting nonsense like
It wasn't tested (I was one of 50,000 people between June to December 2020 on a trial)
The vaccine was gene therapy (no it isn't)
A vaccine damage payment was setup for Covid (Covid was added to the VDP that was setup in 1979).
And so on.

 

[Unseul]

Sceptics vs Sheep.

Only neither of your groups actually read the scientific papers.

As someone who has read scientific papers. I'm firmly on the side of the supposed "sheep" and think the "sceptics" aren't actually sceptical, they're just sheep who don't even follow the evidence, they just like parroting scary sounding numbers like "the WHO said it caused MS in 1 in 300 vaccinated people" without actually being sceptical of even such a ridiculous claim.

 

[danswan]

I'm really offended by that.
I'm still working in a hospital dealing with Covid cases and many more in here work within the NHS knowing what actually happened and didn't get their info from You Tube.

The CT'ers are still spouting nonsense like
It wasn't tested (I was one of 50,000 people between June to December 2020 on a trial)
The vaccine was gene therapy (no it isn't)
A vaccine damage payment was setup for Covid (Covid was added to the VDP that was setup in 1979).
And so on.

Sorry if I offended you, but not sure why. It's just my take on what I believe makes up the silent majority. I have no real opinion on whether that's good or bad, just my observation.

 

[Rroff]

Heart damage is a long term result, testing negative for covid in the post morten wouldn't have mean it wasn't a covid infection that caused the damage. Covid testing in the early days was also rather haphazard if I recall, requiring you to drive to the test centres etc, a long way from simply having the at home covid tests (quite a few didn't have easy access to those either for a while, unless in a relevant field, and then, doing the test right wasn't acheiveable by all).

People have developed heart damage on varying timelines both post COVID and post vaccine. I'm trying not to go into too much detail as a certain amount is speculative but in the case of my gran it is very very unlikely she had COVID before she passed away due to the medical supervision, and isolation, she was under and very very likely it was the AZ vaccine which caused her death, despite a specialist pathology team saying otherwise, again due to the medical supervision she was under which was half the reason the coroner asked for a specialist to look at the case (the other half due to seeing a big increase around that time of similar cases - many of which are likely due to COVID itself).

I tend to take notice of these kind of things where others often don't - I might be wrong about some stuff but I'm usually right as to the general trend of things. Generally IMO the AZ vaccines were responsible for a more significant, even if not widespread, amount of heart related issues than is allowed for.

 

[xaldub]

You made the claims, you back it up, it's not upto me to try and prove your claims. You got those figures from somewhere (1 in 300, 1 in 35) where did they come from? Link that if you can't find the actual WHO report, or the paper from the EU cardiologists...

And it's not my job to try and convince you. If you're serious about researching the facts behind COVID and the vaccines then go and create an account with PubMed and look up the studies yourself. But I suspect you won't because you're not open-minded and prefer to believe in journalistic opinion pieces instead.

 

[Werewolf]

Trials almost always have a "control" arm where half of the recipients get a placebo ( they just aren't aware at the time - or shouldn't be if done properly ). The COVID vaccinations were definitely tested ; the problem is that side effects/issues were discovered and not communicated to the public. For example, the WHO had evidence before the vaccines were launched, that there was a 1 in 300 risk of developing Multiple Sclerosis following administration of the AstraZeneca, Pfizer and Moderna vaccine. They didn't acknowledge this until after the pandemic was officially over.

IIRC the UK pre covid had something like 1 in 300-400 people with MS...

So people being diagnosed with it after the covid jabs is not surprising, even at a seemingly higher rate because there will be more people looking out for anything unusual/reporting it. It might well be that it'll settle back down to the old number in a few years because the number of earlier than usual diagnosis has gone done.

Correlation is not causation, it can indicate a link but equally having people encouraged to seek advice if they notice anything is in itself a big modifier on the numbers being diagnosed, you see it after even simple things that don't involve any direct involvement such as if there is a storyline on a soap with a character getting a disease or cancer etc it often raises people's awareness of the signs and encourages them to get checked out, thus you'll see an increase in the number of diagnosed cases of say breast cancer after it's been featured in Eastenders, or people going to get checked out for the early signs of Alzheimer's.

It is also worth noting that from memory MS is an auto immune condition that they're not sure quite what causes it, so if someone "got it" after the covid jab there is a high chance they'd have got it after covid, or more likely they already had it but it was not diagnosed (IIRC it often takes years to get a diagnosis with a lot of people struggling to get one early on because the symptoms can be so many other things).

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Sorry if I offended you, but not sure why. It's just my take on what I believe makes up the silent majority. I have no real opinion on whether that's good or bad, just my observation.

Because you claimed I was a sheep following my peers.
I'm still working with it dude.
A month ago I had to send a Solicitor to a patient on a Ward to witness a Will because they weren't jabbed and were now suffering really badly - they thankfully came through it.