Poll: DAB+ is the future? Digital terrestrial radio broadcasting

[jpaul]

You can't connect the IP feed to most of the high quality audio reproducing systems.
How are you going to run it - on your smartphone with its mediocre speakers?
How about your mobile internet coverage? Do you have it everywhere or in select city centres?

a couple of other points


at home,
for 320 IP bbc stream I use a laptop, sometimes with external dac, but, more frequently the DVB(tv aerial) radio streams, on a humax TV box;
for home, DVB, represents a solution in the UK, as opposed to dab+

Since many folks have broadband at home, an IP stream radio, or DVB should be cheaper than Dab+.

I agree, that many people with BT headphones on a smartphone will be downgrading a decent feed to the std 128Kb/s BT codec, resampled on the Android mixer too,
so probably no better than 70Kb/s dab+ aac.

I am not sure an IP feed makes efficient use of the communication infrastructure, in so much it's not an optimised multi-cast communication afaik.

Mobile IP is more tricky, I don't get reliable 2G phone where I live, and don't use mobile 4G data in a car/smartphone,
but would consider switching to that if FM (whose reception is fine) was turned off, and a low bitrate DAB stream replaced it.


In the Swiss case, I don't know if they have a much higher transmitter density that the UK to support their DAB roll-out,
prior to the huawei debacle, I thought, 5years out, we would have a 5G station on many lamposts, to give massive mobile network coverage/bandwidth.

 

[lucid]

I don't know why DAB+ quality in the UK is so bad.

Theoretically, you can have 38 muxes on the frequencies from 5A - 174.928 MHz to 13F - 239.2 MHz. If every mux has 16 channels, it means 38 by 16 equals 608 potential radio channels with satisfactory quality.
Each mux has maximum bitrate of 1,184 kbit/s, if you want 128kbit/s radios, then a mux can fit 9 stations, or 351 stations from 5A to 13F.

In London, there are currently 145 stations.

Let me see if I can help you with that. Here's a breakdown of the main points:

Money

Money money

Money

Money money and money.

Then of course there's money, and money too.

We can't forget to factor in money.

Oh, and money.

(Did I mention money?)

 

[4K8KW10]

Let me see if I can help you with that. Here's a breakdown of the main points:

Money

Money money

Money

Money money and money.

Then of course there's money, and money too.

We can't forget to factor in money.

Oh, and money.

(Did I mention money?)

Money has no value for the society if it disrupts its normal functioning.
There should be Quality, ethics and morality put in the money-making equation, too

 

[lucid]

Money has no value for the society if it disrupts its normal functioning.
There should be Quality, ethics and morality put in the money-making equation, too

That's a nice speech. Now wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[lucid]

Nope, I have listened to both DAB+ and FM and can tell you the difference is more like 10-bit picture compared to 6-bit picture in visual quality.

By the sound of it, you've compared poor FM reception with a high bit rate DAB+ transmission if the difference was that marked.

 

[4K8KW10]

Can't wait to see it happen:

Belgium
After regular operation in Flanders, DAB+ has now also been introduced in the Walloon part of Belgium. It broadcasts programmes of the public broadcaster RTBF, the German-speaking Belgian Broadcasting Corporation (BRF) and private radio stations.

In Flanders, 26 percent listen to radio digitally, 39 percent of all new cars have DAB+ installed as standard.
The Flemish government has decided to shut down FM two years after 50 percent of radio consumption is digital. In Flanders there is a mux of the public broadcaster VRT with twelve programmes and one with 13 private radio stations.

Denmark
98 percent of the population can receive DAB+. Nearly 45 percent of Danish households have at least one digital radio. There is one national multiplex for public broadcaster Danmarks radio and private radio, as well as 13 local muxe.

The Danish Parliament's current media agreement stipulates that FM broadcasting will be terminated as soon as the share of digital radio reception reaches 50 percent. The current rate is 28 percent.

https://www.dabplus.de/2020/02/20/dab-in-europa-der-ueberblick-2/

 

[lucid]

Can't wait to see it happen:

You really are eager to kill the golden goose, aren't you.

 

[4K8KW10]

You really are eager to kill the golden goose, aren't you.

If you only define what according to you the "golden goose" is...

 

[lucid]

The bandwidth available and the chance to nail down real quality, high bit-rate, digital radio for the long term benefit of listeners rather than trading it all for some short term 'win' that ushers in digital radio regardless of quality just because "it's digital; so better, right?" just so long as the backhanders get paid and the profiteers are happy.

It's a short term win that turns in to dust compared to the longer game with real benefits.

 

[a1ex2001]

The bandwidth available and the chance to nail down real quality, high bit-rate, digital radio for the long term benefit of listeners rather than trading it all for some short term 'win' that ushers in digital radio regardless of quality just because "it's digital; so better, right?" just so long as the backhanders get paid and the profiteers are happy.

It's a short term win that turns in to dust compared to the longer game with real benefits.

What are the real benefits to the average end user of higher quality radio transmissions? Look at the equipment and environments most people listen to radio in and you will understand why quality sound isn’t a priority!

 

[lucid]

What are the real benefits to the average end user of higher quality radio transmissions? Look at the equipment and environments most people listen to radio in and you will understand why quality sound isn’t a priority!

For some places I would agree. It is perhaps why in some cases AM radio still survives. In some cars, and on factory floors, or listening on small 'transistor-type' radios, all sorts of places where the environment or the listening equipment overrides any minor quality concerns.

Is that enough reason though to throw in the towel for everyone?

Consider all the people who have decent audio gear. I'm not just thinking about large home stereos, but more modest gear; say car stereos good enough to show up the difference between Bluetooth and playing a file or CD. They'd certainly show up the quality gap be beween FM and some DAB stations. How about the folk who have decent Roberts or Tivoli or Ruark radios?

There are a lot of folk who don't care about quality. Radio isn't unique in that. Look at the sale of sound bars as a primary audio system. Mini/midi/full size Hi-fi sales in the mainstream market are the walking dead. It's the same story with surround systems. A sound bar is considered good enough for so very many people who would have bought a HTiB kit previously. That's still not good enough reason though to chuck in the towel.

DAB could be- and should be- a winner. I want the advantages of DAB/DAB+. Being able to listen to stations I wouldn't be able to receive in FM is a huge bonus. What I, and a vocal section of the radio listening population aren't willing to trade off though is quality for this convenience. Despite then a large chunk of the general population not giving a flying fig about FM vs DAB, therest may also be a large overlap with the people who do not buy radio receiving gear. IOW, their opinion doesn't contain in sales terms.

 

[a1ex2001]

For some places I would agree. It is perhaps why in some cases AM radio still survives. In some cars, and on factory floors, or listening on small 'transistor-type' radios, all sorts of places where the environment or the listening equipment overrides any minor quality concerns.

Is that enough reason though to throw in the towel for everyone?

Consider all the people who have decent audio gear. I'm not just thinking about large home stereos, but more modest gear; say car stereos good enough to show up the difference between Bluetooth and playing a file or CD. They'd certainly show up the quality gap be beween FM and some DAB stations. How about the folk who have decent Roberts or Tivoli or Ruark radios?

There are a lot of folk who don't care about quality. Radio isn't unique in that. Look at the sale of sound bars as a primary audio system. Mini/midi/full size Hi-fi sales in the mainstream market are the walking dead. It's the same story with surround systems. A sound bar is considered good enough for so very many people who would have bought a HTiB kit previously. That's still not good enough reason though to chuck in the towel.

DAB could be- and should be- a winner. I want the advantages of DAB/DAB+. Being able to listen to stations I wouldn't be able to receive in FM is a huge bonus. What I, and a vocal section of the radio listening population aren't willing to trade off though is quality for this convenience. Despite then a large chunk of the general population not giving a flying fig about FM vs DAB, therest may also be a large overlap with the people who do not buy radio receiving gear. IOW, their opinion doesn't contain in sales terms.

The phrase you missed is ‘tiny vocal minority’ the vast majority of people don’t care they listen to the radio in the car or while making breakfast the sound is likely indistinguishable from Spotify streaming on the cheap smart speaker or crummy blue tooth speaker. We are not a nation who seeks the best quality the majority of people settle for ‘good enough’ Hence the sales of DVD’s, cheap sound bars and the love of an illegal download filmed at the back of the cinema!

 

[lucid]

The phrase you missed is ‘tiny vocal minority’ the vast majority of people don’t care they listen to the radio in the car or while making breakfast the sound is likely indistinguishable from Spotify streaming on the cheap smart speaker or crummy blue tooth speaker. We are not a nation who seeks the best quality the majority of people settle for ‘good enough’ Hence the sales of DVD’s, cheap sound bars and the love of an illegal download filmed at the back of the cinema!

We're in agreement on a lot of these points, @a1ex2001.

What I would point out though is that of the entire nation didn't care about DAB quality then FM would already have been switched off. But it hasn't, has it.

This minority then, no matter how small, is helping to keep the UK Government from completing its aim to sell off the family silver.

The fact that so many UK citizens don't care about quality is actually helping the case of the disruptors to frustrate the UK Government. Where people value free over quality means that they're highly unlikely to spend their own money on equipment for something they don't care about. If DAB comes bundled in at the same cost as a non-DAB bit of hardware then they'll take it, but so far at least, getting access to DAB has a hardware cost in too many cases, and that is slowing the roll-out. This is why the European Government has had to mandate that DAB be included in all factory-fit car radios. Given that DAB/DAB+ has been a cost option in so many cases, the evidence is that car buyers have chosen not to pay for it. The European Government then has taken the decision to force the cost on to car manufacturers in order to achieve its aims by the back door.

 

[a1ex2001]

We're in agreement on a lot of these points, @a1ex2001.

What I would point out though is that of the entire nation didn't care about DAB quality then FM would already have been switched off. But it hasn't, has it.

This minority then, no matter how small, is helping to keep the UK Government from completing its aim to sell off the family silver.

The fact that so many UK citizens don't care about quality is actually helping the case of the disruptors to frustrate the UK Government. Where people value free over quality means that they're highly unlikely to spend their own money on equipment for something they don't care about. If DAB comes bundled in at the same cost as a non-DAB bit of hardware then they'll take it, but so far at least, getting access to DAB has a hardware cost in too many cases, and that is slowing the roll-out. This is why the European Government has had to mandate that DAB be included in all factory-fit car radios. Given that DAB/DAB+ has been a cost option in so many cases, the evidence is that car buyers have chosen not to pay for it. The European Government then has taken the decision to force the cost on to car manufacturers in order to achieve its aims by the back door.

FM isn't still around because a hand full of people care about quality, FM is still around because the government has made no significant effort to kill it off and it's not as simple as adding a cheap set top box like we did for TV's. FM will go once coverage is high enough and people have the right kit to listen particularly in cars where an upgrade is not a cheap easy option eventually the government will put a cut off date forward and much like with the digital TV switch over things will suddenly get moving.

I'm really not sure how long DAB will last in the face of internet streaming much like terrestrial TV I suspect it's time is limited.

 

[jpaul]

Indeed if it's like the analogue switch off, they delivered free STB's ?

Another issue, what is the appetite for all these radio stations , can't believe the presenters are scintillating on all these stations,
so they just become a gallery for music of a particular gendre which you can get off of tidal mixes, say.
yes I'd like 5 & 6 to be available on fm, but other than that, I'm struggling.

Maybe the public performance licensing of music also demands an inferior bit-rate, I've kept a few recordings off of the 320kbs IP stream sites.

 

[lucid]

FM isn't still around because a hand full of people care about quality, FM is still around because the government has made no significant effort to kill it off and it's not as simple as adding a cheap set top box like we did for TV's. FM will go once coverage is high enough and people have the right kit to listen particularly in cars where an upgrade is not a cheap easy option eventually the government will put a cut off date forward and much like with the digital TV switch over things will suddenly get moving.

I'm really not sure how long DAB will last in the face of internet streaming much like terrestrial TV I suspect it's time is limited.

Again, there's a lot of agreement between us.

Personally I give a little more credence to the quality argument in the UK given the arts status of Radio 3 and what I suspect is a fair number of listeners to the service who might also hold positions of influence in the government and the arts nationally.

You're right though about the cost to kill FM. The government risks upsetting a lot of tax-paying motorists and voters if it switches off FM without significant public support. Millions of motorist's finding their radios silent, and no viable alternative without significant cost and disruption... That's an election loser, right there.

 

[lucid]

Indeed if it's like the analogue switch off, they delivered free STB's ?

Another issue, what is the appetite for all these radio stations , can't believe the presenters are scintillating on all these stations,
so they just become a gallery for music of a particular gendre which you can get off of tidal mixes, say.
yes I'd like 5 & 6 to be available on fm, but other than that, I'm struggling.

Maybe the public performance licensing of music also demands an inferior bit-rate, I've kept a few recordings off of the 320kbs IP stream sites.

There's a problem for the radio industry nationally. It is contracting. I can't recall the name of the firm, but there's a company which has gobbled up a lot of small radio stations and is now running them almost as a syndicated national chain. The programming is delivered from a central suite and the only local variation is the news, traffic and advertising content. They've done away with many of the local presenters and back office staff.

Advertising revenues in traditional media channels are changing. The shift to online content is significant. Is dividing up a shrinking cake in to ever smaller portions by flooding the airwaves with lots of low quality radio channels really the answer? I'm not convinced it is.

 

[a1ex2001]

Again, there's a lot of agreement between us.

Personally I give a little more credence to the quality argument in the UK given the arts status of Radio 3 and what I suspect is a fair number of listeners to the service who might also hold positions of influence in the government and the arts nationally.

You're right though about the cost to kill FM. The government risks upsetting a lot of tax-paying motorists and voters if it switches off FM without significant public support. Millions of motorist's finding their radios silent, and no viable alternative without significant cost and disruption... That's an election loser, right there.

Radio 3 has a tiny number of listeners but I guess like you say they could hold undue influence over the powers that be, I wouldn't put them anywhere near the weight of the financial/good will implications of killing FM though!

There's a problem for the radio industry nationally. It is contracting. I can't recall the name of the firm, but there's a company which has gobbled up a lot of small radio stations and is now running them almost as a syndicated national chain. The programming is delivered from a central suite and the only local variation is the news, traffic and advertising content. They've done away with many of the local presenters and back office staff.

Advertising revenues in traditional media channels are changing. The shift to online content is significant. Is dividing up a shrinking cake in to ever smaller portions by flooding the airwaves with lots of low quality radio channels really the answer? I'm not convinced it is.

Radio much like linear TV is slowly dying the young don't listen and can't it seems be persuaded to tune in.

 

[4K8KW10]

DAB+ gives many advantages - it is not only the higher sound quality but the lower cost for electricity and the much greater choice because you can give the consumers 5-6 times more stations over the DAB+ blocks from 5A to 13F than FM.

And DAB+ is free-to-air, internet is not. Actually, many people have no mobile internet connection, nor they find it convenient to "play" with links in order to get a stream.
Plus paid subscriptions for services such as spotify, the picture gets really ugly.

 

[lucid]

DAB+ gives many advantages - it is not only the higher sound quality but the lower cost for electricity and the much greater choice because you can give the consumers 5-6 times more stations over the DAB+ blocks from 5A to 13F than FM.

And DAB+ is free-to-air, internet is not. Actually, many people have no mobile internet connection, nor they find it convenient to "play" with links in order to get a stream.
Plus paid subscriptions for services such as spotify, the picture gets really ugly.

More bollix from you.

You can't make blanket claims such as these. It's possible to shoot you down. Every. Single. Time.

DAB+ does not give better quality that FM. There are certainly times when it can. But so much hinges on the compression levels used. It is far easier to make DAB+ sound far worse than FM simply by using the sort of compression levels we are seeing right now in DAB+ broadcasts.


DAB+ does not use less electricity than FM receivers. Once again, there have been developments that have helped DAB and DAB+ radios improve their power consumption figures significantly over the past decade, but a lot depends on whether the higher cost components are included in DAB+ capable radios as to whether they'll deliver comparable or lower power consumption than an equivalent quality FM unit.

And DAB+ is free-to-air, internet is not. Actually, many people have no mobile internet connection, nor they find it convenient to "play" with links in order to get a stream.

Plus paid subscriptions for services such as spotify, the picture gets really ugly.

There is a cost of entry to DAB/DAB+. It's the hardware. It's often dedicated hardware too. That's something different from multi-purpose devices such as smart phones, tablets, laptops and home computers, digital TVs and STBs, satellite and cable receivers etc etc. Radio programming delivered over these other platforms is an incidental benefit. It's a side feature included in products bought for some other purpose, but that also enable access to content without the hardware cost of a dedicated receiver.

Spotify - paid or free - is not comparable with digital radio on any platform.

Spotify and similar services are a music library service delivered via the internet. The user choose and curates their own content. Digital radio does not and cannot offer a like-for-like service. The whole point of radio in any form is that the content and programming is decided by others. The user is a passive voyeur if you will; not an active participant as would be the case with any streaming service.

Quite frankly, the fact that you're still persisting with this B.S. makes me think you're either acting too stupid to remember that past points you raised and lost, or you're a very unsophisticated internet troll.


The only true element from your post is that DAB+ offers more stations. But quite honestly, that's akin to arguing that trains are better than cars because trains have more wheels.