Dark Rock 4 owners - i need re-assurance.

[Plec]

Having a nightmare of a new build - short version is that the NVMe, once in the case, will not install windows but outside of the case it's fine (also, i can install windows on a standard SATA SSD inside the case)

After comprehensive troubleshooting/bread boarding (i have 3 computers to borrow from) - i'm leaning towards the Dark Rock 4 applying too much pressure around the socket and interfering with the operation of the NMVe when screwed into case. i.e. due to forcing the MB to level out - but there's no visible warping of the MB - but there will be forces around the socket given fitting and right next to NVMe slot.

I've fitted a couple before but i'm now second guessing myself about the starting gap between the retaining bar and the socket bracket. Re-assure me that this the standard gap before tightening the bar to meet the bracket?

Link (can click on pic to zoom in):

https://imgur.com/75LJZvl

I'm in the process of loosening brackets ever so slightly and will tighten to bar to bracket once again - finger tight. But would like my niggle stomped on...


Spec:

MSI B450 Tom MAX
3700X
3600MHz Crucial memory (not clocked)
Dark Rock 4
1Tb WD NVMe
2 x Crucial 1TB SATA - have not been attached.
GTX 1070 (from old build)
Antec HCG 850W (excessive but bargain in fire sale - less than year old)
bequiet Pure Base 500 case

@doyll - would appreciate your experienced eye on the above linked image if you have the time and hands on experience with DR 4.

 

[Quartz]

Just to clarify: the NVME drive works just fine when the motherboard is outside of the case with the Dark Rock CPU cooler installed? But not inside? Are you sure there isn't a piece of solder or foil or something between the motherboard and the case? A stand-off in the wrong position, perhaps? Does it work in another case?

 

[Plec]

Yes, NVMe works fine outside of case with DR 4 still strapped on. It installs inside, but then becomes corrupt after a couple of restarts/driver installs. (Not so, outside of case.)

I should also add, the NVMe worked fine on the same model board in a 3600 system - no windows corruption on install (tested yesterday eveing).

 

[doyll]

Strange one. Nothing on motherboard, cooler mount, etc. is touching case when installed?

I like your idea of loosening cooler mount. Problem might be motherboard flex with cooler mount, but might also be mobo flex elsewhere .. maybe intermitent short to mounting standoff.

What happens if you just set motherboard into case with moutning screws not tightened up? To be on safe side I would screw at least a few mobo mount screws in loose so it can't move around.

 

[Plec]

Strange one. Nothing on motherboard, cooler mount, etc. is touching case when installed?

I like your idea of loosening cooler mount. Problem might be motherboard flex with cooler mount, but might also be mobo flex elsewhere .. maybe intermitent short to mounting standoff.

What happens if you just set motherboard into case with mounting screws not tightened up? To be on safe side I would screw at least a few mobo mount screws in loose so it can't move around.

Nope, nothing touching (as far as i can tell) the Pure Base is surprisingly roomy. The back plate on the Tomahawk is annoying, but no more than others i've had to install motherboards against - nothing bent, curled over.

I've remounted the Dark Rock - bracket and retaining bar finger tight - and re-seated CPU and this time installed NVMe after DR 4 install - so that it adapts to any slight movement that the board may have experienced - not sure if i did this before. (Used Dental floss to remove fan brackets - worked really well, no marking.)

I'll try minimum number of screws tip - plus i may swap out the middle support riser for a screw one, as it's right next to the NVMe and the board may benefit from the additional levelling it may add (pee'ing into the wind here - but may help)

I won't be installing the DR 4 fan straightaway - it can run passive for Windows install, until i know everything is OK, or not :s

Thanks for responding to shout-out @doyll - did you agree that the gap between bar and bracket was normal before tightening? As mentioned, I've fitted them before - but doubting myself now given the issue.

 

[doyll]

No problem. Glad to try and help. Top of IHS to motherboard is about 7mm put some are a little higher so a small gap is possible. That said I've never had it cause a problem. Tightening screws just finger tight is a good way to make sure mount is not causing flexing issues.

 

[EsaT]

Just to clarify: the NVME drive works just fine when the motherboard is outside of the case with the Dark Rock CPU cooler installed? But not inside? Are you sure there isn't a piece of solder or foil or something between the motherboard and the case? A stand-off in the wrong position, perhaps? Does it work in another case?

There would be perfectly logical reason for that:
Outside the case motherboard is likely flying flat on table, which lowers and makes stresses to board simpler compared to motherboard's vertical position with cooler's weight hanging from board causing additional "twist".

And without spring loaded screws there's no sure limit for force caused by mounting system of cooler itself.
So that could be pushing board nearer the edge with vertical position then going over it.

 

[Plec]

And without spring loaded screws there's no sure limit for force caused by mounting system of cooler itself.
So that could be pushing board nearer the edge with vertical position then going over it.

Hey @EsaT

This is the theory (nagging doubt) i'm working on and fits in with all the troubleshooting i've done - plus persistent doubt when problem appeared (never fitted a DR 4 with an NVMe combined before. And, rather telling that it works out of the case and installs fine within the case with a standard SSD. But, I'm really careful not to over tighten - which is why i'm questioning the engineering of this particular unit (although, gap looked OK to me - but if tensile strength of bar is stiffer than normal - it could be an issue once clamped to bracket - even finger tight.)

@Quartz's theory was a good shout (thanks btw, @Quartz) - but virtually dismissed with all my troubleshooting - but obviously not dismissed completely and will be using minimal screws when i install again tomorrow.

* @EsaT - did you get your camera, my advice would have worked, but would have probably got you on a terrorist watch-list - swings-and-roundabouts?

 

[Plec]

DP

 

[EsaT]

This is the theory (nagging doubt) i'm working on and fits in with all the troubleshooting i've done - plus persistent doubt when problem appeared (never fitted a DR 4 with an NVMe combined before. And, rather telling that it works out of the case and installs fine within the case with a standard SSD.

You could try testing case on its side with board in same position as outside the case.
That would be pretty darn sure confirmation that it's stress from cooler's mounting and twisting force from its weight, which causes the problem.


Shop hasn't gotten second shipment of cameras yet, so no need to worry about getting it.
Anyway special laws are being taken into use first time since WW2 and schools are closed after tomorrow etc.
Though at least don't think there will be internal limits for travel of people unless epidemy takes turn to worse. (so far only one elderly person in ICU)

 

[Plec]

You could try testing case on its side with board in same position as outside the case.
That would be pretty darn sure confirmation that it's stress from cooler's mounting and twisting force from its weight, which causes the problem.)

Sorry, I should have clarified - all my testing inside the case was done on it's side - ease of access as much as anything when troubleshooting.

Shop hasn't gotten second shipment of cameras yet, so no need to worry about getting it.
Anyway special laws are being taken into use first time since WW2 and schools are closed after tomorrow etc.
Though at least don't think there will be internal limits for travel of people unless epidemy takes turn to worse. (so far only one elderly person in ICU)

Everywhere is in a state of flux - theory's (behavioural 'science') being stood on their head continually. Ideally, if they could eliminate ambiguity with their decisions - it would help stop certain people's knee jerk reacting to flip-flopping policy.

 

[EsaT]

Motherboard's attachment scews certainly change stresses caused to motherboard.
Also there's no weight carrying support directly under mobo and cooler's weight.

I wonder if turning case the right way up would change anything.
Now that would be hilarious if it started working...

Reminds me about Babylon five episode Messages From Earth:
"How can you sleep in these things?"
"It's quite simple with proper meditation. Because we consider sleeping in horizontal to be tempting death."
"Yeah, if I'm sleeping in this, I'm tempting fate .. all night."
Maybe it would be time to dust out season boxes and do marathon...

 

[drakulton]

Reminds me about Babylon five episode Messages From Earth:
"How can you sleep in these things?"
"It's quite simple with proper meditation. Because we consider sleeping in horizontal to be tempting death."
"Yeah, if I'm sleeping in this, I'm tempting fate .. all night."
Maybe it would be time to dust out season boxes and do marathon...

"And so it begins."

 

[Plec]

I wonder if turning case the right way up would change anything.
Now that would be hilarious if it started working...

My system wouldn't think so when i decorate the wall with it - after taking the pee for 2 days.

Maybe it would be time to dust out season boxes and do marathon...

You may have the luxury of time soon. I can recommend Rick and Morty, if you've not watched it - a polar opposite to Babylon 5 from looking it up (not sure what i was watching during that period - probably South Park).

 

[Plec]

Update: (@orbitalwalsh - i'll update 'conversation' when completed but will keep this thread updated because if it's what i think it is it may prove useful to other members in future searches.)

So, connected LAN and did an install with my 2 sticks installed, at XMP (3600MHz), UEFI and updated drivers. So far no Windows corruption and no weird little screen flashes/glitches to indicate something maybe amiss. It never achieved this inside the case.

My, working premise, is that the DR 4 was/is applying considerable around the socket and with the NVMe socket so close it's skewing connection slightly. This was only apparent when the motherboard was secured into the case and the slight bowing (not visible) becomes forced to level out - borking the NVMe slot/drive.

To try and remedy this i've: reseated the DR 4 - finger tight again - and this time installed the NVMe after its installation so that its fitted/adjusts with the slight warp (if any - again, none visible). But, i'm hoping the re-seating of DR 4 will prove enough.

The other change i'm making is that the Pure Base 500 comes with a support stand off for the middle riser. I'll be swapping this out for a regular riser/screw as this is close to the NVMe slot and screwing down this area may help with levelling - theory being that only screwing the outer edges may exacerbate any slight warping - pushing board towards middle. A middle fixing should even this out if it was an issue. Yep, i'm pee'ing in the wind...

Got to get some work done - but will update later once i've got it fitted.

 

[orbitalwalsh]

@Plec- sure i've got Alphacool M.2 to PCIe 3 x4 drive spare somewhere . might be able to connect to another PCIe slot and avoid the m.2

or... X570 Gaming x for £135 considering now OCUK charging £105 for the toma max....

 

[Plec]

@Plec- sure i've got Alphacool M.2 to PCIe 3 x4 drive spare somewhere . might be able to connect to another PCIe slot and avoid the m.2

or... X570 Gaming x for £135 considering now OCUK charging £105 for the toma max....

Or, this hopefully works and i don't have to contemplate an alternative. That's what my hand is clutching these straws for...

/fears case fixings may throw a spanner in the works...

Cheers for offer though, bud - and i would consider the Elite if i had to swap or maybe even wait for B550s (but never relish playing with an immature BIOS). But, a working Tomahawk would be preferable...

 

[orbitalwalsh]

Or, this hopefully works and i don't have to contemplate an alternative. That's what my hand is clutching these straws for...

/fears case fixings may throw a spanner in the works...

Cheers for offer though, bud - and i would consider the Elite if i had to swap or maybe even wait for B550s (but never relish playing with an immature BIOS). But, a working Tomahawk would be preferable...

remember , vendors do X570 and B550 first then B450 and X470 afterwards. AMD change the microcode, Vendors don't have full details to it - you'd think they would but this isn't the case then you get all the issues in the past . Vendors fix the new then work on the old . sort rocking up to Q4 and stable bios may get a bit crazy with Zen3 coding

 

[Plec]

remember , vendors do X570 and B550 first then B450 and X470 afterwards. AMD change the microcode, Vendors don't have full details to it - you'd think they would but this isn't the case then you get all the issues in the past . Vendors fix the new then work on the old . sort rocking up to Q4 and stable bios may get a bit crazy with Zen3 coding

If I updated to Zen 3 (not planned, or needed) - i would update the board too, purely out of interest in new board - but can't see that happening unless this build proves temperamental 'if' i get it working. The one nagging doubt i'll have for a few weeks - if it sparks to life in the case.

Hit one snag - the bequiet Pure base didn't come with spare risers so i'm searching for some Corsair ones, that I've safely stored somewhere - so safely, that i can't find them :/

 

[doyll]

Maybe it's case causing distortion, not cooler mount .. assuming that is cause which I doubt. Is case motherboard panel and standoffs on one plane? If they are not then they may be stressing the motherboard so it isn't flat.

Plase keep us posted. Really curious to know what the problem is.