Dark Rock 4 owners - i need re-assurance.

[Plec]

Maybe it's case causing distortion, not cooler mount .. assuming that is cause which I doubt. Is case motherboard panel and standoffs on one plane? If they are not then they may be stressing the motherboard so it isn't flat.

Yes, they are - but usual cut outs and indentations throughout. But is still under suspicion...

I've replaced middle unthreaded standoff/riser (spacer) with a threaded one - the one near NVMe drive - so I will be able to secure that properly. I'm hoping that screwing down this area will level out any bowing that only having outer screws may introduce/exacerbate in the middle of the board (my logic anyway).

Also, refitted case back-plate - still looks awkward - but as mentioned before, pretty standard fair.

Plase keep us posted. Really curious to know what the problem is.

Will do - i'm looking harder at the case - but still feel it's a combo of cooler and case fixing.

If this fails - i'll try stock cooler, but don't fancy it's chances of survival if it fails again as i haven't really got the time to be troubleshooting such a whimsical issue. I normally isolate the core of the problem within an hour (if hardware and standard build) - this is starting to grate, as could be a combo of factors...

Sod it, i'll take an 30 minutes in hour and get it in the case, before i lose daylight. Bare bones setup - and see what happens. Won't know conclusively until after a couple of days and multiple restarts even if it passes a few restarts at the beginning.

JOY!

 

[Plec]

****!

Installed into case - screws finger tight, minimal cables and after second reboot Windows becomes corrupted (did connect case power switch, wish i hadn't - but nothing else)

I'll try the stock cooler when i get time tomorrow - and throw it in the case as that will determine if it's the DR 4/case combo.

Never experienced this before and i've built with Silver Arrows with ridiculous central wrench/nut method :/

 

[Danny75]

I'm glad this strange phenomenon happened to you, Plec. Because I know you'll want to get to the bottom of it.

Looking forward to the next chapter already. Got to find out who dun it. Can name your build The Orient Express?

 

[Plec]

Hey, @Danny75

Favouring one of my guitars at the moment mulling things over - i may have a scotch in easy reach (long day)

I'm glad this strange phenomenon happened to you, Plec. Because I know you'll want to get to the bottom of it.

I definitely prefer remotely diagnosing the obscure than experiencing it myself. I realise i may come across as tenacious; sticking with a forum member throughout their issues, no matter how obscure or inexperienced, but at least i get to: carry on with my work, use it as a distraction while in shop's waiting rooms (wife, clothes shopping), or kicking back sat in my favourite area of the garden with kids etc...

However, this will be the third strip down and i still have a few things to eliminate and all are time consuming and some introduce the possibility of damage -as i may have to strip two systems for access - components everywhere... Ho-hum.

If i can find the time tomorrow i'll attempt the following (i'm working remotely at the moment so i can dip in and out - i'm not symptomatic, it's a new department policy due to present unfolding events):

• remove backplate - a quick reinstall with it removed - but this really is a reach, but at least it's simple.
• different/stock cooler. If this works, I may cut my losses and buy a Mugen 5 - very lightweight, and simple fix - but nowhere near as cool and quiet, regardless of reviews (i like my silence when working under medium CPU loads - and the Mugan, although excellent value, doesn't cut it for an experienced ear/plus my work loads.. Kids have them in their systems.).
• if the stock cooler fails then i'll try a different case. If this works, then I will be in a pickle diagnostic wise - but will have to point OcUK to this thread as it could be board/component specific - maybe even 'my board' specific - as it may have a slight manufacturing weakness in one spot. So, this wouldn't automatically suggest the Pure Base 500 as culprit, even with the evidence to hand (hope that makes sense)
• if it doesn't work in a different case then all roads seemingly lead to the motherboard (considering breadboard results) - and after this amount of testing i'll probably be ready pitch it at the wall. Again, i'll have to direct OcUK to this thread as it feels too unique/specific - again may not be able to be replicated on a test bench.

So, a pessimistic theme underlying my future troubleshooting results - even if i 'identify' the problem i'm not 100% certain it could be replicated. I have a nagging doubt i have one of those rare, ambiguous issues that will be hard to simulate in a testbench/environment (very rare technicians have the time to cover/replicate the fault, i 'may' have). I've worked on a few threads with the same feel to this over the years and it took weeks for retailer to identify what i had remotely identified via a forum (a corrupt i920 - a guy called Davyboy - nightmare scenario comes to mind.)

*Feel free to add anything i may be overlooking (even the obscure) - i'm too close to the problem now and there's a chance I may overlook the bleedin' obvious.

 

[drakulton]

Just to clarify from what I've read so far. It works with the DR4 fitted with the mobo lying flat on a surface. I doesn't work in the case with the case lying on it's side. What happens when the cooler is fitted and the case is standing on its feet.
Could the components be pre-stressed to work only in this orientation? Does it work with the case standing on its top, or back or front?

 

[Plec]

Just to clarify from what I've read so far. It works with the DR4 fitted with the mobo lying flat on a surface. I doesn't work in the case with the case lying on it's side. What happens when the cooler is fitted and the case is standing on its feet.

Yes, it works flat when breadboarded - out of case. And, yes, same results when upright, unfortunately

Could the components be pre-stressed to work only in this orientation? Does it work with the case standing on its top, or back or front?

They're designed to work in either orientation - vertically or horizontally (if that is what you mean?).

 

[drakulton]

We need a troubleshooting party at your gaff. No coughing allowed.

 

[Plec]

No coughing allowed.

Heh, my kids would unnerve you - colds (had colds before media rejoiced in whipping some people into a frenzy).

We need a troubleshooting party at your gaff.

An extra pair of hands would be very handy with these well designed compact cases - and ridiculously hard fittings; poor motherboard tolerances, as far as i can tell, with my Seasonic. Plus, black on black makes it impossible to accurately see what you're doing - even with mandatory geeky headlamp adorned. I don't have windowed cases - so luminous green motherboards would suit me just fine at the moment.

Nothing i'm not used to - but time is a luxury at present and troubleshooting with the odd 15 minutes, here and there, is not ideal.

 

[Danny75]

*Feel free to add anything i may be overlooking (even the obscure) - i'm too close to the problem now and there's a chance I may overlook the bleedin' obvious.

Will do if I think of anything you haven't tried.

 

[doyll]

I keep mulling it over in my head I the more I think the less likely I think it's cooler mounting causing distortion. CPU IHS is more of a load spreader / controller than a heat spreader. It's size matches the edges of socket so it' structural height supports the edges of cooler on edges of IHS and this is on edges of CPU socket. Mount back plate to cooler has mounting load centered on socket. Mounting studs only pull cooler base tight on IHS and IHS edges keep it from deforming socket. Clamping action / pressure is all on IHS to edges of socket, then through motherboard to backplate. There is no clamping action that could deform motherboard .. assuming mount is functioning properly. It's not uncommon for backplate to be loose until cooler is mounted and tightened down and drawng it's center tight against back of socket.

 

[Plec]

I keep mulling it over in my head I the more I think the less likely I think it's cooler mounting causing distortion. CPU IHS is more of a load spreader / controller than a heat spreader. It's size matches the edges of socket so it' structural height supports the edges of cooler on edges of IHS and this is on edges of CPU socket. Mount back plate to cooler has mounting load centered on socket. Mounting studs only pull cooler base tight on IHS and IHS edges keep it from deforming socket. Clamping action / pressure is all on IHS to edges of socket, then through motherboard to backplate. There is no clamping action that could deform motherboard .. assuming mount is functioning properly. It's not uncommon for backplate to be loose until cooler is mounted and tightened down and drawng it's center tight against back of socket.

Appreciate your thoughts, @doyll - all helps.

It's nothing i've experienced before, recently -other than years ago and that was with users being over aggressive with tightening the, then, new monolithic coolers. And even then the problem would present in a different manner - but with new tech/designs this may be the new norm (most builds with this board use smaller coolers or standard SATA SSDs, so not enough data out there for comparison.

However, although I agree in principle with your logic - the m.2 slot on the Tomahawk board is sat right next to the socket (inbetween that and the GPU) and of course the DIMM slots (the usual suspects with cooler issues). My thinking at the moment is that it's applied just enough imperceptible distortion that when evened out by the case fixing, it is either causing a problem with the m.2 slot or, just as likely, the DIMM slots. The weird fault i'm experiencing is equally applicable to both - memory especially causing weird anomalies that are sometimes difficult to diagnose.

Only option i have is to first swap out cooler and install stock and reinstall - if that passes, either my DR 4 has slight engineering issue, or the motherboard has a slight tolerance weakness, or the case is warped - but it appears level.

I have other tests to do if that fails - but will attempt cooler swap out in an hour. Tempted to try slackening the DR 4 some more - but it's a PITA taking the fan on and off each time. Plus, the stock cooler would be quite definitive if it works (Mugan 5 sold out :/).

 

[doyll]

I empithize with you. This kind of problem can be almost impossible to isolate and resolve. Realistically the motherboard should be able to flex some without causing problems .. but who knows. It could be anything (I don't know how many possible causes) from defective motherboard, motherboar shorting out into standoffs, defective RAM, defective RAM socket, defective mobo standoff heights, defective M.2, defective M.2 socket and on and on and on. All I'm getting at is I don't thihnk it's CPU cooler mount problem. At least not with quality cooler mount like be quiet! uses. Problem could just as easily ber flexing RAM sockets or M2 socket.

I agree, switching to stock cooler is a good move, but if it's mount related stock cooler may cause same problem.

I would also suggest using a SSD or even HDD on cable to be sure it's not M.2 related.

Good luck! Hopefully our next post will have solution.

 

[Plec]

Grabbed 10 minuted and whipped off the DR 4 and installed stock cooler - will test tonight when i have more time.

Things that i noted:

• Board perfectly level when sat on risers - once screws taken out.
• No warping but a slight discernible lift on side of the board without cooler - but very slight (again - nothing that i haven't seen many times before but will take into consideration).

Will post back once i've ran some tests later tonight.

I empithize with you. This kind of problem can be almost impossible to isolate and resolve. Realistically the motherboard should be able to flex some without causing problems .. but who knows. It could be anything (I don't know how many possible causes) from defective motherboard, motherboar shorting out into standoffs, defective RAM, defective RAM socket, defective mobo standoff heights, defective M.2, defective M.2 socket and on and on and on. All I'm getting at is I don't thihnk it's CPU cooler mount problem. At least not with quality cooler mount like be quiet! uses. Problem could just as easily ber flexing RAM sockets or M2 socket.

Yes, agreed - i'm in for the long haul. Or, very short - as stock is running out and i may have to throw money at the solution. Not my ideal - but difficult times. Trouble is if stock cooler works - quite rightly MB should be identified as the fault/weakness, unsure what OcUKs take would be on this.

I would also suggest using a SSD or even HDD on cable to be sure it's not M.2 related.

Good luck! Hopefully our next post will have solution.

Tested a standard SSD - and that works fine with DR 4 installed, which is why i'm leaning so heavily towards a mounting/socket issue. But agree that the MB should tolerate a quality engineered cooler.

And, thanks - i'll take all the luck i can at the moment (not sure the DR 4 will tolerate being taken off many more times.)

 

[doyll]

You have determined system works fine with normal SSD, but not M.2 SSD.

To me that looks like issue is something to do wiht M.2, but we don't know if it's M.2 itself, M.2 motherboard socket flexing, etc. This all seems to support my thinking it's not cooler mount related. More likely it's motherboard flex when in case vs out of case causing contact issues with M.2.

I know how frustrating these issues can be. Don't let it get you down. Take a break and take a walk, have a cuppa, whatever mellows you out, then try again.

 

[Plec]

You have determined system works fine with normal SSD, but not M.2 SSD.

The NMVe drive has been tested and passed in a separate (almost identical) system - Mugan 5 attached. So, that rules it out as much as it can be in these situations.

I know how frustrating these issues can be. Don't let it get you down. Take a break and take a walk, have a cuppa, whatever mellows you out, then try again.

I have more than enough work to distract me - i wish i had more time to devout to it. In reality i should have isolated the problem by now. But, it's either board or cooler - but agreed board should cope. But, as you rightly mentioned, so many other factors could also contribute, which is why i'm losing motivation and looking at sending MB back if it fails with stock cooler.

We'll be step further tonight - i hope...

*Galling taking off a quality DR4 and sticking on stock...

 

[doyll]

Fact that system works fine with standard SSD but nto with M.2 SSD causes me to believe problem is M.2 related with nothing to do with what cooler is being used. I could be wrong but that seems most logical cause at this time. I don't suppose you have another M.2 SSD to test with.

I suppose you could just use SSD and not use M.2.

 

[Plec]

Fact that system works fine with standard SSD but nto with M.2 SSD causes me to believe problem is M.2 related with nothing to do with what cooler is being used. I could be wrong but that seems most logical cause at this time. I don't suppose you have another M.2 SSD to test with.

I do but would mean wiping a system - plus, drive worked in breadboarded system with DR 4 attached. But, it would be useful to eliminate (but a real PITA) - but i'll try stock tonight and decide from there.

I suppose you could just use SSD and not use M.2.

Considering this - but would be admitting defeat...

 

[doyll]

I do but would mean wiping a system - plus, drive worked in breadboarded system with DR 4 attached. But, it would be useful to eliminate (but a real PITA) - but i'll try stock tonight and decide from there.

Considering this - but would be admitting defeat...

Even if stock cooler allows M.2 to function properly I don't think that mae DR4 the problem. To me problem is M.2 SSD connection. While M.2 SSD may for with stock cooler, I think it's likely to fail sometime in the future.
I don't see it as defeat. At most it's a compromise with end result being a working solution to problem.

 

[Plec]

Even if stock cooler allows M.2 to function properly I don't think that mae DR4 the problem. To me problem is M.2 SSD connection. While M.2 SSD may for with stock cooler, I think it's likely to fail sometime in the future.

Regrettably, I agree to a point. But, memory belies it's ability to compromise an install/stability in the way it presents. And, even in this instance, corrupted driver installs fits within it's diverse idiosyncrasies - and has well known vulnerabilities to 'Arthur C Clarke' type coolers (although, again, agree this shouldn't be an issue). But, there is always that outside chance that the DR 4 was milled incorrectly - but the odds side heavily with poorly printed motherboard.

I don't see it as defeat. At most it's a compromise with end result being a working solution to problem.

Yeah, my brain struggles with that one - but with present world issues, i may make an exception and lose £110 on a redundant NVMe (i pass things on - don't sell).

*still not had time to test, maybe very late tonight :/

 

[Quartz]

Yes, it works flat when breadboarded - out of case. And, yes, same results when upright, unfortunately

Just to clarify: if you stand the motherboard vertically, as if it were in the case, you get the same problem, right?

Have you checked that the M.2 drive is properly secured? It is plugged all the way in and the screw holding it in place is fully tightened?