Darren Pencille murder trial

Soldato
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No I don't agree with that - that's ridiculous tbh.. a 4' 2 person can be aggressive. Of course if you're say a massive 6'6 person and a 4'2 person is being aggressive towards you then you're probably not going to be too fearful of it even if the aggression is somewhat physical. But the aggressive act itself is independent of the size of the person.

A midget can be very aggressive if they want.
you disagreeing with it doesn't make it ridiculous, it makes you not understand what i am trying to get across. i never said a midget can't be agggressive. of course they can. and of course actual threat offered potentially diminishes the smaller the person is (not taking weapons etc into account)
What i said was the perceived threat or level of aggression the other person feels can and does vary depending on the size of the person involved - whether genuine or not. a larger person can create a greater perceived level of intimidation which can make the other person feel they are aggressive. if you don't believe that to be true that's fair enough. i've seen enough evidence during my life to believe it is true in certain situations. i've seen first hand occassions where a smaller person has lashed out for what appears to be virtually no reason or at least completely disproportionate but when asked why they lashed out the reason given on most occassions was that they felt they needed to act first given the size of the other person involved - i don't agree that it was the correct thing to do and you, I or many others likely wouldn't have reacted the same way but the size of the other person 100% played a key factor in the smaller person lashing out. fear does weird things to people. just because you or I don't perceive someone to be a threat, intimidating or aggressive doesn't mean that everyone else will feel the same.

It doesn't highlight anything re: life experiences, it was simply a manufactured scenario to demonstrate a principle/make a point. And again we don't know that there was a heated debate, as far as we know the victim might well have been entirely calm.

no, actually, it highlights it perfectly. you compared one scenario that likely happens daily with very little chance of any physical confrontation taking place with another likely daily occurence that has a much higher risk of leading to a physical confrontation but because most people don't end up stabbed or dead doesn't get the headlines. my own life experiences tell me that i'm unlikely to get a slap in the mouth from the waiter should i follow them to tell them i find them to be rude and obnoxious but that i need to be prepared to defend myself if i decide to follow someone on a train to give them a piece of my mind, even if i initially have no intention of causing them physical harm. they are 2 totally incomparable scenarios.

it also highlights that you're not getting what i'm trying to explain - which may well be my fault, so apologies for that if that is indeed the case.

i get the impression, and i could be totally wrong here but i feel you're trying to simply apply you're understanding of what aggression is across every situation, sort of a blanket application as it were (given the waiter scenario you mentioned). the reality for me, however, is that someone can feel they are being initmidated even when the other person does not mean for them to feel that way and it will likely vary greatly from one situation to another.

to use the video in the op, looking at just the video as it stands i don't see the victim as overly aggressive or intimidating for several reasons but that doesn't mean the defendant didn't see him as intimidating or aggressive, irrespective of what the victim said. it's all about the individuals perception of the scenario as it plays out. would a woman have felt intimidated if a big dude had followed her to have a word if she had just given him a volley for blocking her path on a train - i'd hazard a guess the answer would be yes possibly - even if the person coming to have a word with her had no intention of getting physical. would a smaller man, an old man or infirmed man feel the same, again I'd hazard a guess at possibly yes. it's how the other person perceives the threat level that determines whether they feel they are being intimidated or are at risk of an aggressive encounter. what you and i perceive it to be from the comfort of a pc or even how we would perceive the situation in real life is kind of irrelevant.


Well no, not necessarily. It can be (dependent on what is said etc..) but it isn't automatically and that is the point.
of course it's not automatic aggressively, don't think i have said it is (and if i've given that impression then i shouldn't) it's all down to how the other person perceives the situation. i just think that a bigger fella is more likely to appear intimidating and aggressive to an individual without them actually meaning to or indeed doing anything to warrant the other person feeling that way than a smaller person would. but as above, if you don't believe that to be true, that's your right. as is mine to believe it is.

i'll do a made up scenario to hopefully highlight better what i'm trying to get at......if you're out walking of an evening and some big bloke decides to follow you for a 'laugh' to give you a scare (yes daft i know but does happen on occassion) and you realise you are being followed, well there's a good chance your going to be feeling intimidated and threatened even though the person following you has no intention of confronting you - that's an aggressive act as the person following set out to intentionally intimidate the other - no violence, no hostility required, hell no words even needed. if some short stop decides to do the same, your much less likely to feel any intimidation - at least in my opinion. so size, for me, does play a part in how a situation may appear to someone on the receiving end.
 
Caporegime
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you disagreeing with it doesn't make it ridiculous, it makes you not understand what i am trying to get across.

I understand what you're trying to get across I just think your argument is flawed/wrong and you're conflating aggression with the level of threat that someone could pose.

What i said was the perceived threat or level of aggression the other person feels can and does vary depending on the size of the person involved

Yes, IF they're being aggressive. A big person isn't inherently aggressive just because they disagree with you or because they have something else to say to you.

of course it's not automatic aggressively, don't think i have said it is (and if i've given that impression then i shouldn't) it's all down to how the other person perceives the situation. i just think that a bigger fella is more likely to appear intimidating and aggressive to an individual without them actually meaning to or indeed doing anything to warrant the other person feeling that way than a smaller person would. but as above, if you don't believe that to be true, that's your right. as is mine to believe it is.

Yeah that I'd completely disagree with.

If you're going to have a position of someone is aggressive because a potentially irrational third party merely perceives them to be so then I think your argument is flawed. Someone is being aggressive if the actions they take are aggressive, not because of some aspect of their person that they can't change.

I mean someone with prejudice could be timid around black people, it doesn't make a black person inherently aggressive because they've approached them or had a disagreement with them.

Aggression is down to words and actions and is separate to the innate physical characteristics of the person being aggressive.
 
Soldato
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No you don’t get it or you would understand that I’m not conflating anything. Anywho, it matters not. As you say, not everyone has the same opinion so it’s all cool.
I think we’ll both agree the big lad was a dafty for following the ‘roadman’ type person and certainly didn’t deserve to be stabbed to death. Shame schools can’t teach ‘streetwiseness’ (is that even a word!) :p
 
Don
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BBC and SKY updating the story as the case goes on, SKY giving more critical quotes from passengers of victims behavior stern, stubborn and patronising, taunting him, special needs, doesn't sound good
Yeah, doesn't sound good at all, goaded him and followed him into another carriage to continue arguing.

If he is found guilty I suspect it'll be some sort of "diminished responsibility" thing and committed to secure mental hospital for treatment (is this even still a thing?).
 
Associate
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I'm struggling to see the point of the medias rolling coverage of this unless they have an agenda that they want to claim the victim deserved to be murdered.

The murder element doesn't even warrant discussion, he stabbed him 18 times. You will struggle to say you only meant to injure somebody if you stab them that many times.

Despite how provocative Pomeroy was, unless you are an immediately threatened with violence there is no justification for slaughtering somebody in front of his son and the general public. The sheer fact he was carrying a knife and was the instigator of the initial argument suggests he is a dangerous and unhinged person.
 
Associate
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Yeah, I don't have time for the knife assailant. He had a knife which in itself is odd and when wound up, lost it completely and killed someone.

end of the day, you can't go stabbing people when having a disagreement (despite the goading etc).

I've been on the receiving end of someone trying to start a fight on a train, many moons ago, not a single thought came to me that I needed to kill the person, I just rode the situation out and got off the train.
 
Associate
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The victim was openly talking to the defendant, standing casually with one hand holding onto the train and the other by his side, hence not being physically threatening in any immediate sense. No reason at all for the defendant for a) to be carrying a knife, and b) to draw said knife and lunge at the victim with the known consequences.

In my opinion, the charge should be murder.
 
Associate
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The victim was openly talking to the defendant, standing casually with one hand holding onto the train and the other by his side, hence not being physically threatening in any immediate sense. No reason at all for the defendant for a) to be carrying a knife, and b) to draw said knife and lunge at the victim with the known consequences.
this.
 
Associate
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I've never stabbed anyone. But I'd imagine stabbing someone once isn't going to stop them being aggressive, it would probably inflame them more.
There's quite a large gap between stabbing someone once, and stabbing them 18 times over the course of 24 seconds.
 
Man of Honour
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Surrey
This was very near me. It was on the train that my kids get to school and back. Just a couple of stops away and within about 10 mins drive from me.

Stabbing someone 18 times is murder. No way to get around that. I read somewhere that the victim said something about being shown up in front of his son. I can understand that. I really can. It was probably the motivation for him to follow the assailant into the next carriage to argue with him. But I have to wonder what I would do in that situation and I think that provoking someone while I was with my child would be too much of a risk to that child. Above all else I'd have to protect my child and walk away even if it meant I was embarrassed in front of my family. It has to be priority number one.

But it's still murder and he should be dealt with accordingly.
 
Soldato
Joined
17 Jul 2008
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7,369
I imagine pulling a knife out will be enough to make them leave you alone. This was murder of the first degree and I find it completely baffling that people are defending someone who stabbed a man 18 times???!!

Big guy pushes arguemt too far
Little guy feels threatened,
Little guy pulls knifs to make big guy back off
Big guy sees knife and tables are turned
Fight or flight kicks in and knowing flight is no option big guy fights
Little guy who would never stab anyone has no choice but to stab..
Stad someone once and nothing much happens.. Panic sets in and he keeps doing it

Probably tragic event.. Or maybe little guy just felt a little stabby and was out to murder anyway..
 
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