Declining attitude to law and order

[TheVoice]

It's rather baffling that you appear to believe that the police dealing with RTA offences is a waste of resources, yet would happily reallocate those limited resources to patrolling on foot everywhere (or "driving at walking speed" ). It's an old-fashioned concept, and as much as there's a need and a desire for the police to be present and involved in the community, it's not the best use of a police officer's time which is why PCSOs were introduced.

If you want more officers available to deal with lower-level crime, do something about how those lower-level/persistent offenders are dealt with, and do something about how much time they're tied up dealing with people with mental health issues and then waiting at hospital for an equally-overstretched mental health time to assess those people. You'd free up significant time and resources by dealing with those two issues, but unfortunately there's no quick fix for that.

 

[chrcoluk]

I think it was bad enough that they were pulling the guy over whilst certain other stuff was been ignored, but to then call for backup was ridiculous, even his colleague questioned it.

I notice it as a repeated trend in the episode, the police picking a high profile situation and then assembling huge amounts if not all of the on duty police to deal with that single case.

Yes I do believe community policing is more important than RTA's. Do you think I am alone in this opinion?

If you was to double the officers doing these patrol's and call out's but still have the same policy of allocating all of them to one call, you will still have the same problems, so its not a simple numbers game.

 

[FoxEye]

It's rather baffling that you appear to believe that the police dealing with RTA offences is a waste of resources, yet would happily reallocate those limited resources to patrolling on foot everywhere (or "driving at walking speed" ). It's an old-fashioned concept, and as much as there's a need and a desire for the police to be present and involved in the community, it's not the best use of a police officer's time which is why PCSOs were introduced.

If you want more officers available to deal with lower-level crime, do something about how those lower-level/persistent offenders are dealt with, and do something about how much time they're tied up dealing with people with mental health issues and then waiting at hospital for an equally-overstretched mental health time to assess those people. You'd free up significant time and resources by dealing with those two issues, but unfortunately there's no quick fix for that.

How about not requiring the police to deal with mental health problems. Seems like an inappropriate band-aid to me to paper over the cracks.

Free up the police, if there's a chronic mental health problem then let it come to light (aka public attention) and give it proper resourcing, rather than asking the police to deal with it.

Heck, even the Guardian agrees
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/27/police-mental-health-system-patients

 

[Burnsy2023]

Watching this show, I already have questions.

Why is it policy to need 8 officers to take a restrained person to the station?

I haven't seen the episode, but it's all dependant on the risk of the DP. Certain individuals, when they decide to be violent will take that number of officers to deal and prevent injury to both themselves and other officers.

Are the staff answering calls and dispatching officers, trained officers?

Most likely police staff, not constables.

Yes I do believe community policing is more important than RTA's. Do you think I am alone in this opinion?

You do realise that a significant number of these RTCs will be fatals or causing life changing injuries. Are you suggesting these aren't worth investigating?

Free up the police, if there's a chronic mental health problem then let it come to light (aka public attention) and give it proper resourcing, rather than asking the police to deal with it.

Without a mitigating action, if this were policy, people would die as a consequence.

 

[Burnsy2023]

Pulling the guy over for registration plate issue was ridiculous and waste of resources. Then it ended up been 6 officers. O_o

Just watched this bit. You've got a male who is large in build and clearly anti-police. He's being abusive from the start and has a neck tattoo saying "ACAB". It looks like the officers don't know this male and don't know his history. He was refusing details so they can't even check who he is. He may be incredibly violent towards police, he may be wanted on warrant or as part of another investigation. If he is, then it looks like it might be a fight to arrest him. He looks like he could do some damage if he wanted to and police aren't working to get injured.

He only asked officers to be in the area if something kicked off anyway.

 

[FoxEye]

Without a mitigating action, if this were policy, people would die as a consequence.

You could say that about so many things. Should the police man the phones at the Samaritans if they don't have enough volunteers?

Should the police jump in to drive coastal patrol boats if the coastguard are understaffed?

I know those are silly examples, but in a world where the police are over-stretched anyhow, to the point where they can't investigate so-called "low-level" crimes like theft, etc, maybe being an auxiliary service for the NHS isn't such a great idea.

 

[Werewolf]

Pulling someone in for registration plate issue?
Do you mean non compliant ones?

Often if someone has something like that, they'll have other issues with the vehicle, or their licence (or it may be that he'd already been told to fix it), so it's worth them checking if they've got nothing that needs their urgent attention as they'll often get them for something else.

 

[Werewolf]

You could say that about so many things. Should the police man the phones at the Samaritans if they don't have enough volunteers?

Should the police jump in to drive coastal patrol boats if the coastguard are understaffed?

I know those are silly examples, but in a world where the police are over-stretched anyhow, to the point where they can't investigate so-called "low-level" crimes like theft, etc, maybe being an auxiliary service for the NHS isn't such a great idea.

The thing you seem to be having trouble dealing with, is that if someone is in say a "mental health" crisis, their lives could be at risk, that puts it firmly in the remit of the police to get involved and even if the NSH wasn't underfunded and social services were manned better (especially outside of office hours*) they would likely ask for police assistance as the police have better training at restraining and dealing with violent and potentially violent people than most medical staff (not to mention if need be the police carry restraints, ambulance staff don't).


*Seriously try getting help from them urgently after about 5pm or on a weekend.

 

[Burnsy2023]

I know those are silly examples, but in a world where the police are over-stretched anyhow, to the point where they can't investigate so-called "low-level" crimes like theft, etc, maybe being an auxiliary service for the NHS isn't such a great idea.

Part of it is purely pragmatic. If someone dies, the police need to investigate regardless.

 

[wesimmo]

You could say that about so many things. Should the police man the phones at the Samaritans if they don't have enough volunteers?

Should the police jump in to drive coastal patrol boats if the coastguard are understaffed?

I know those are silly examples, but in a world where the police are over-stretched anyhow, to the point where they can't investigate so-called "low-level" crimes like theft, etc, maybe being an auxiliary service for the NHS isn't such a great idea.

You do realise that the police spend their time policing the results of mental health issues, not counselling people?

If police refused to do anything that was linked to mental health it would mean ignoring the disturbed person with a knife in a public place, or the weirdo creeping out women.

The point is, if mental health was adequately provisioned then there would be fewer incidents for the police to deal with by trying to avoid them in the first place.

 

[FoxEye]

The thing you seem to be having trouble dealing with, is that if someone is in say a "mental health" crisis, their lives could be at risk, that puts it firmly in the remit of the police to get involved

There's a lot of "could be" and "might be" in that post.

I know it's going to sound cold, but should the police really be involved if a person "might" want to self-harm?

Also it doesn't seem to be reserved for the most extreme cases where there could be some justification, it seems that it's now become the normal procedure to get police involved, even just to drive these people around to and from hospital...

 

[Deleted User 234324]

@MadMossy - you live in Surrey - perhaps it is time to vote for someone other than the Tories?

Really that's news to me, last I checked I lived in Torbay. Yep I do, I just looked out the window and its definately Torbay outside.

 

[hurfdurf]

I very much enjoy the people who vote Tory and then complain when they can't get public services or their community becomes way worse off.

 

[FoxEye]

I very much enjoy the people who vote Tory and then complain when they can't get public services or their community becomes way worse off.

Who's that then? You reckon you know how we all voted?

 

[hurfdurf]

Who's that then? You reckon you know how we all voted?

Who said I was talking about *everyone* in this thread? There has been some actual non mums net tier posts in it.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

I very much enjoy the people who vote Tory and then complain when they can't get public services or their community becomes way worse off.

Just like everyone enjoys when people vote Labour then complain when the public spending has to be rolled back due to a decade of mismanagement of finances and wastage?

 

[hurfdurf]

Just like everyone enjoys when people vote Labour then complain when the public spending has to be rolled back due to a decade of mismanagement of finances and wastage?

Not encountered a true Labour government in my lifetime so wouldn't know.

 

[FoxEye]

Who said I was talking about *everyone* in this thread? There has been some actual non mums net tier posts in it.

Hmm for a committed SJW such as yourself I'm surprised that you're making such a disparaging comment towards women/mums

Surely mumsnet is your second home?

 

[hurfdurf]

Committed SJW? No such thing.

 

[dowie]

Hmm for a committed SJW such as yourself I'm surprised that you're making such a disparaging comment towards women/mums

Surely mumsnet is your second home?

Don't assume mums net is all SJWs... I've got three accounts on there for a start!