Derek Chauvin murder trial (Police officer who arrested George Floyd)

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Yeah, that's a new one - not sure about that CO idea...

Though the notion that it was sudden death/an arrhythmia does seem reasonable though... someone with an underlying heart issue, blocked arteries, drugs and the heart rate increasing/adrenaline pumping in the arrest could have caused this regardless.
 
MadMossy said:
Here we go, I thought undetermined for classification of death was far more accurate than homicide.
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I wonder if that will cause a juror to go with reasonable doubt... thing that seems so silly about the notion of a jury is that you could get one stubborn person determined to screw the whole thing - say you have a massive racist who loves that Chauvin killed a black person, they could get onto a jury (just act normal) and become a hold out refuse to vote to convict on anything... or likewise you could get some massive woke type who also suffers from a completely warped view like the racist - thinks words are violence and is determined to find Chauvin guilty of the highest charge etc..

Obvs those are extremes - but maybe more common, you're going to get a range of views and some people will inevitably be more dominant or persuasive in the jury room, some juror or jurors who believe in guilty or not guilty but aren't confident could probs be swayed by pressure form the rest... it is a bit of a lottery as to what these personality types are going to be like in the actual jury room.
 
weringo said:
Seems odd that a unanimous not guilt verdict is needed to avoid a retrial. Is that fairly standard or does it depend on the jurisdiction?
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AFAIK it is fairly standard in the US - they're going to be encouraged to find a unanimous verdict between them I presume... this is where it might come down to come holdouts.

A mistrial (at least under normal circumstances) doesn't necessarily meant there definitely will be a new trial, a mistrial verdict can be enough for the prosecution to just drop the case... might be a bit different here though given the focus on it or it might lead to the federal government attempting to charge Chauvin under the guise of some civil rights thing...

I think there are similar odds of a manslaughter conviction here and a mistrial but even in the event there is either a mistrial or not guilty verdict from this I presume some non-murder/non-manslaughter federal charge would apply.
 
MissChief said:
So does the level of force, the restraint used and eventual death of GF for passing a counterfeit note, of which he may not have even been aware was counterfeit, sit Ok with you? He wasn’t a mass murderer on a shooting spree, he didn’t rob a bank with an AR15, he passed a counterfeit bill. Because I certainly think the Officer massively overreacted, had a distinct lack of concern, did not take his duty of care in any way seriously and even when paramedics were on scene he still didn’t remove his knee from his neck despite there being no pulse. All while GF was face down and handcuffed. To me that’s a gross dereliction of a police officers duty and while perhaps not murder is at least manslaughter.
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Some of this is a tad naive, he was aware as the store came out twice to the car to try and get him to go back in and pay for his cigarettes (though granted one of these times he was dozing off due to the additional two pills he'd taken in the car). They were told that the police would be called - if you passed over a forged banknote to a shop and went to your car then were told about it by the shop would you:

A) go back into the shop and sort it out - i.e. pay for the goods, or check it was the note you handed over etc..?

or

B) Tell them to **** off, remain in your car and take some drugs?

The cops arrived initially to deal with the counterfeit bill issue (and were told that Floyd looked drunk) so they're dealing with an apparently drunk guy behind the wheel of a car, of course they're going to have to arrest him and take him in his was on something. His subsequent behaviour justified the rest of the initial treatment.

The question is over the later continuation of that restraint when he lost consciousness - that is where Chauvin has perhaps assaulted him or is guilty of manslaughter etc..
 
Skunkworks said:
I wonder if the defence could cite this as grounds for a mistrial.

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This is the more worrying aspect:

hELHzfP.jpg


https://abc7news.com/santa-rosa-pig...in-defense-witness-home-barry-brodd/10524376/

SANTA ROSA, Calif. (KGO) -- Police say troubling acts of vandalism in Santa Rosa overnight are connected to a key defense witness in the Derek Chauvin trial.

The photos show pig's blood splattered in front of a home, and on a downtown statue.

Vandals splattered the pig's blood on this home at 3 a.m. Saturday, and left a decapitated pig's head on the front porch.
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The defence witness doesn't even live there anymore, some random people unconnected to the trial who were unfortunate enough to have bought the house from him woke up in the early hours of the morning to 4 people wearing black throwing a pigs head against their door!

Can imagine what they might do to the houses of jurors if there is a hung jury... quite possible that (in the event of a mistrial) some jurors will dox other jurors in the media etc... won't take long to establish which jurors wanted to convict and which didn't etc..etc..
 
Colonel_Klinck said:
I don't agree with what she is saying but how is that any different from Trump telling his base to march on the Capital?
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Well one incident gets labeled as a "coup" others get labeled as "fiery but peaceful protests" :D

Anyway the thread is supposed to be about the trial and issues directly related to it, her comments are perhaps relevant because they're directly created to the trial and the atmosphere surrounding it (pressure jury and witnesses are under etc...) "whatabout Trump" is perhaps better left to the drones in the SC containment forum.
 
MadMossy said:
If the names of one or some of the jury has been made public somehow then a mistrial is almost certain, if not, you can guarantee they will be sequestered tomorrow until the trial is over.
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Are you just giving that as a hypothetical or is there some rumour/leak on social media that's in reference to?
 
2004typer said:
Have I just heard this right in that the judge now has the final say on the result?
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Sorry am not watching live but I presume you're referring to the sentencing right? The verdict itself is down to the Jury.

MadMossy said:
Well that's a spanner in the works for BLM then, the Judge just said that the congresswomens actions might just lead to the trial being over turned.
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I guess we could get a third round of rioting after any appeal then too...

As mentioned before I reckon manslaughter is the most likely followed by a mistrial and then 3rd-degree murder (with or without manslaughter too - they can return up to two verdicts)...

Any of those could result in a second round of massive nationwide riots... and then any resulting appeal another round.
 
Interesting, this betting market currently has Chauving being found guilty of one verdict as the highest probability (presumably heavily weighted towards manslaughter?) but also weights 2 verdicts (max allowed) as higher than none (mistrial or not guilty), I fund that surprising as I reckon p(mistrial or not guilty) > p(3rd-degree murder) > p(2nd-degree murder).

https://polymarket.com/market/how-many-charges-will-derek-chauvin-be-convicted-of

(liquidity is rather low tho....)
 
MadMossy said:
Doubt there will be riots if he is found guilty, but I suspect many officers will be questioning if the job is worth it.
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Thats true, either way it isn’t great for the city. If he doesn’t get a murder conviction then the city will burn and more people will die.

If he does get a murder conviction then more cops will quit (already a problem for that city) and crime within certain areas or indeed among certain groups will carry on rising, more people will die.

In both cases there is the risk of the city tending towards Detroit. Americans seem to be a bit more mobile, don’t seem to have as much of the local identity thing that we have in the UK where someone might be a scouser or a brummy say and several generations of their families were too... In the US they’ll seem to be happy to move on.

IMO he quite possibly deserves a manslaughter conviction but I don’t think the conviction would be particularly safe as there is plenty of doubt. I don’t know that Floyd wouldn’t have died anyway regardless of the kneeling on his back and at times his neck, seems quite plausible that he could have though it also seems quite plausible that Chauvin was a significant cause. Arguably that should be a not guilty verdict but if he’s found guilty of manslaughter then meh. Murder seems like a complete reach though.
 
OMG, they've reached a verdict already!!!!

That was quicker than I thought, I wonder perhaps if they have gone with a murder conviction then!

I was expecting some arguing with the majority going for manslaughter... but a quicker verdict and I'm now wondering about one of the extremes, murder or not guilty!
 
This was my estimate - clearly I was massively wrong re: a mistrial (mostly considering a hung jury there than a judge decision though the latter did come a bit close at the end), I wonder if I'm going to be massively wrong re: manslaughter too now:

dowie said:
My current thinking re: the chances of the various outcomes from the jury is:

second-degree murder: 5%
third-degree murder: 15%
second-degree manslaughter: 35%
mistrial: 35%
not guilty: 10%
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Given the speed of the verdict, I think I'd revise the above a bit... essentially squashing the distribution down to give a bit more weight to the extremes.
 
I'd assume, given the makeup of the jury, it isn't going to be not guilty - would surely be at least one hold out given the number of young people on there... and given there isn't a hung jury then...
 
For extra irony, what if he gets say 3rd degree and/or manslaughter and the Judge gives him <= 10 years.... i.e. up to or below the same amount he was going to enter a plea deal for anyway!
 
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