Derek Chauvin murder trial (Police officer who arrested George Floyd)

[dowie]

For example, it's clear that the defence's case is centered around the notion that the cause of death was drugs not Chauvin.

I think the main focus for them is actually that Chauvin was allowed to do what he did (at least to a point) and that there is some leniency that can be applied here to a police officer making an arrest and having to use force vs say an ordinary person doing the same - wouldn't be reasonable for the store clerks for example.

Essentially Chavin probably has gone too far but from the defence perspective, they can try to show that in going too far, in the heat of the moment etc.. that didn't constitute felony assault etc...

that as a primary argument is perhaps better than just trying to go with placing it all on the victim. The drugs is obviously a key secondary argument here though and in itself can generate sufficient reasonable doubt - that only requires one juror to have reasonable doubt and have enough conviction to hold that position/not be pressured or swayed by the others and the defence can get a mistrial.

 

[dowie]

Ouch.

Prosecution expert medical witness (pathologist) currently under cross examination by the defence surrounding the condition of George Floyd's heart, she was asked a hypothetical question:

"If you found Mr Floyd dead in his residence, alone, without any police, drugs or other circumstances, what would you rule to be the cause of death" and her answer was "due to his heart disease"

Guy who did the autopsy has commented something similar btw... albeit with drugs.

Will certainly be interesting to see the medical experts the defence brings in.

 

[dowie]

How strong does a possible cause of death need to be before a relevant expert will rule it as the cause of death rather than stating that the cause of death is unknown?

Not sure - though the medical examiner who did the autopsy is on the stand currently, could be some interesting updates from that (though haven't watched nor have time to watch all of it).

 

[dowie]

I can certainly see some reasonable doubt from that testimony tbh...

I guess on one hand yes it probably is going to make him nervous if his testimony aides in Chauvin avoiding the two most serious charges on the other hand he's not going to sit there and put his professional reputation on the line by lying etc..

 

[dowie]

Dear god some of the absolute **** being posted in here regarding this murder of a black man.
Of course the usual racist idiots are out in force posting unsubstantiated nonsense thr you have some new posters posting some nonsense lol.
I promised myself I wouldn’t comment in this thread as I knew it would be a complete **** show.
But Jesus wept at some of the absolute crap being posted by so called armchair lawyers

Bit odd given most of the commentary isn't unsubstantiated but rather is dealing with the facts/testimony currently being presented in the ongoing trial.

Your comments so far are though. Feel free to join in with some constructive discussion or arguments instead of just venting at people who have a different take (if you're capable of it that is). The thread is here for open discussion and it would be nice to see a range of views.

Pls remember this is GD not SC - we tend to focus on actual discussion in threads like this instead of partisan bickering. Coming in straight away with the ad hominems, calling others racist idiots etc.. isn't exactly a great argument so far.

 

[dowie]

Everyone on here has an opinion, that's great, everyone is entitled to one but the only opinions that matter are the 12 jurors in that court. We will see in 2 weeks time what their opinion is. Mine is that that police officer didn't care if the man he detained lived or died. He had a duty of care and he failed to live up to it.

It's possibly only the opinion of one juror that matters, I mean if there is to be a conviction on a given charge then all 12 need to agree on it, otherwise on any given charge the opinion of all 12 doesn't matter rather the opinion of the ones who don't wish to convict, which can be as few as 1, is all that matters.

I think plenty of people believe Chavin could have behaved differently and failed to live up to his duty of care here - that doesn't necessarily constitute 2nd-degree murder or 3rd-degree murder (the first requires intent and a felony AFAIK and the second a "depraved mind"). It might constitute manslaughter though there is potential for reasonable doubt re: the death. An assault charge of some sort perhaps should have been brought, that would be easiest to get chauvin with.

I've seen lots of posts in here saying he basically had it coming. No one deserves to die for a dodgy $20 note. That cop didn't give a damn, he could have stopped kneeling on him at any point but refused to do so even after he stopped breathing.

I don't think anyone is saying he deserves to die over a $20 note, this is just emotive silliness. I think some people are saying he's likely responsible in a large part for what happened by his behaviour - this is hardly a simple forged $20 note case, if it were a normal person would have just paid for their cigarettes when the store assistant came over to inform them the first time let alone twice... not take more drugs (when already high) behind the wheel of a car. And then when caught, high, behind the wheel of a car by the police, take even more drugs and start resisting arrest, acting crazy etc.. refuse to get into a cop car when handcuffed etc...

Chauvin probably went too far with the restraint, there was a lack of care there, especially once he stopped talking and there was no pulse, Floyd though brought a lot of the initial reaction and treatment on himself.

 

[dowie]

Except if you have followed the trial using unbiased sources you would realize the opinions of the actual experts suggest it is murder:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-race-georgefloyd-idUSKBN2BW26K


Too many armchair experts letting their own racism and facist tendencies blind them to the obvious truth as substantiated by the experts.

If you'd paid attention to the cross-examination of that very expert yesterday you'd understand that "homicide" referred to there is a medical opinion/conclusion as he clarified himself under cross-examination, it isn't a legal opinion and it certainly does not in itself suggest murder, that is a massive misunderstanding on your part.

But I guess yet again we see another uninformed person jumping into the thread to drop in some ad hominems.

It is rather silly to pop into a thread and just throw silly attacks like that at others when you don't understand the basics yourself.

Oh and the medical examiners homicide statement does not necessarily mean murder, it is simply used to record a death be believes at the hands of another person, it is not a statement of culpability.

I'm glad someone else understands this. It would be great to see other (intelligent or informed) views but so far I've just seen rather naive posts by people who seek to jump in and vent a little.

 

[dowie]

Ahmaud Arbery

If you and @deuse want to chat about some other cases or racism and policing in the US in general can you please do it in another thread.

 

[dowie]

This is meaningless nonsenses. As a medical examiner, he can only provide hid expert analysis of the cause of death which was consistent with homicide. Whether thst counts as guilty of murder is up to the Jury to decide.

No it is pointing out a distinction that your post lacked as you'd conflated a homicide finding by a medical examiner with your claim that it was an expert suggesting it was murder:

Except if you have followed the trial using unbiased sources you would realize the opinions of the actual experts suggest it is murder:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-race-georgefloyd-idUSKBN2BW26K

A finding of "homicide" by the medical examiner doesn't suggest that it is murder, you've conflated different things. Me pointing that out to you because you don't understand that clearly isn't "meaningless nonsense".

The meaning of my post is quite clear and unlikely yours it isn't nonsense either, it's just highlighting a basic fact that people ought to be aware of re: this case if commenting on it.

This basic fact was highlighted by the medical examiner himself under cross-examination yesterday for anyone who watched and paid attention to it.

 

[dowie]

But his heart wasn't damaged, so how was it his heart?

His heart doesn't need to be damaged in order to have a cardiac arrest. The arteries supplying it were significantly obstructed, it was enlarged and he suffered from high blood pressure - in the 2019 arrest he was told by a paramedic he could die - in that arrest, his blood pressure was noted to be very high after he'd consumed drugs during a traffic stop and he was then taken to hospital.

 

[dowie]

New thread for the other stuff here, this thread was supposed to be about the trial.

https://www.overclockers.co.uk/forums/threads/us-police-thread.18925993/

 

[dowie]

Based on the evidence so far, not conjecture or bias - does anyone here think he's guilty of second degree murder?

nope not at all IMO

My current thinking re: the chances of the various outcomes from the jury is:

second-degree murder: 5%
third-degree murder: 15%
second-degree manslaughter: 35%
mistrial: 35%
not guilty: 10%

 

[dowie]

Wrong thread guys - have quoted your posts in the other thread so you can carry on in there.

 

[dowie]

Ohhh defence bringing up "last nights events" (BLM stuff)- wants to sequester the jury because of the violence.

Also earlier arguments about how to deal with Hall's possible testimony/statement etc.. vs 5th amendment rights - Judge to rule on that this afternoon (US).

edit - update, Judge not currently going to sequester the jury as current civil unrest isn't related to this case. He's given an example that if someone were to find out who a juror was then he'd consider it - needs a greater threat than just civil unrest following another incident.

 

[dowie]

Another prosecution witness - cardiologist this time, asking him about whether he deals with cases involving low oxygen etc.. can see what they will want him on this.

 

[dowie]

Having said that, we know prior to the encounter Floyds drug dealer has stated he took significant effort to get him to regain consciousness after becoming unresponsive in their car, it depends if that can be bought into the court proceedings or not tomorrow.

Those statements aren't allowed - Judge ruled yesterday. I guess we'll have to see what happens re: him being able to testify:

https://news.yahoo.com/morries-hall-passenger-george-floyds-150350518.html

Judge Peter Cahill will rule Tuesday on whether a man who was in the car with George Floyd on the day of his death will be ordered to testify with limitations in the trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin.

Morries Hall had invoked his 5th Amendment right not to testify. The defense had asked that statements Hall previously made to investigators be allowed in as evidence if he didn't testify.

Cahill ruled Monday that those previous statements, which mentioned drug use and Floyd's demeanor the day of his death, will not be admissible.

Hall had been sitting in the front passenger seat of a Mercedes SUV with Floyd when police approached him on May 25, 2020, after he was reported to have used a fake $20 bill at Cup Foods.

[...]

Hall's previous statements, specifically that Floyd was falling asleep in his car before he was approached by police, thus far would be the only indication to the jury that Floyd's drug use could have had an effect on his health that day.

The prosecution could grant Hall immunity that would compel him to testify, but doesn't plan on it.

"The state is the only party to this that has the availability to offer Mr. Hall immunity and they have, at least in the chambers instructions, offered that they do not intend to offer Mr Hall immunity," Nelson said.

Wonder if that will be one of the things cited in a possible appeal.

 

[dowie]

We knew these witnesses were coming - the footage from 2019 had to be cut so as only to show the medically relevant bits - arresting officer + EMS from that incident, key thing defence wanted to highlight was the drug use and resulting high blood pressure (it isn't about comparing his behaviour). Also AFAIK the EMS person pretty much told him he needed to go to the hospital or he'd die, I don't think they've allowed that.

The passenger was just to confirm that he was falling asleep in the car and getting drowsy etc.. imagine they didn't have her as a witness - the other person in the car, Hall, is pleading the 5th and they'll potentially be struggling to get anything out of him.

Presumably, there will at some point be a medical expert witness called for the defence later to talk about both the high blood pressure in the 2019 incident and him drifting off to sleep + other behaviour in the incident in question. Defence counsel just wants those key points on the record from the witnesses today.

 

[dowie]

Wasn't he driving? The shop clerk said he looked drunk/wasted as he bought the cigs. His ex said he was giving her a lift?

With the drugs in his system can't imagine he was all that safe to drive. Esp falling asleep, etc...

Well yeah - that bit gets missed, note you'll see it in this thread and on social media, the NPC-like commentators parroting the notion that this was all over a $20 bill etc... as if the fact that he looked wasted and was found behind the wheel of a car completely out of it is completely irrelevant.

Reality is that with the police finding him in the state in he was in behind the wheel of a car they absolutely had to arrest him/take him in, the store reported him to 911 describing that him as awfully drunk, not in control of himself - it's not like some random person accidentally passing over a forged bill and then upon being told about it being very apologetic and immediately offering to pay for the goods.

Also, the witness today (officer Chang) is the one who ran a check on him - they're not just dealing with a random member of the public at that point, they're dealing with a known violent criminal.

 

[dowie]

Hall steps up and... pleads the 5th:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1382335193097277440

No surprise there...

 

[dowie]

This has been mentioned again today and worth noting as this is a point that one poster got confused about earlier in the thread: