Did CERN just break physics?

/facepalm

Do you think man knows everything out there or that we can detect and see and test for everything.

No, of course not, but claiming this experiment has somehow created a new medium we have not yet encountered is another fairly extreme claim.

As has been pointed out, "light travels slower in different mediums" is fairly irrelevant, this experiment has allegedly recorded travel at a velocity greater than the speed of light, that's a hell of a discovery whatever the reason.

Facepalm me when you have a clue rather than a generic "we don't know everything" statement.

EDIT: My :confused: smiley was because of the extremity of the claim it might be travelling through a substance unknown to man, not because it isn't possible.
 
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Then they let the rest of scientific community back them up. So they can get on with more experiments instead of wasting time proving themselves correct.

IF they are correct.

That's exactly what they're doing. They got the results, they've made them public and published them, now the rest of the community can get to work on it.
 
No, of course not, but claiming this experiment has somehow created a new medium we have not yet encountered is another fairly extreme claim.

As has been pointed out, "light travels slower in different mediums" is fairly irrelevant, this experiment has allegedly recorded travel at a velocity greater than the speed of light, that's a hell of a discovery whatever the reason.

Facepalm me when you have a clue rather than a generic "we don't know everything" statement.

EDIT: My :confused: smiley was because of the extremity of the claim it might be travelling through a substance unknown to man, not because it isn't possible.

He was saying that light might travel faster than the speed of light, I have no idea how you reached the conclusion you did.
 
Let me make another point... what I am saying is this:

The Speed of Light, C, is an absolute constant and upper limit for any information or matter. No information or matter will ever be faster than this.

However, this does not at all mean that something cannot travel from point A to point B faster than light sent between A and B.

Believe it or not, but neutrinos tunnelling through another dimension of spacetime to take a "shortcut" to point B makes far more scientific sense (and is more likely) than the neutrinos physically travelling faster than light!!
 
Interesting snippet about the supernova I didn't know. So if Einstein's theory still stands, how can the neutrinos from that explosion get here 3 hours earlier than the light?

Leaving this dimension /universe and popping back in before it left :D
 
This is because it takes around 3 hours for photons from the Supernova to "escape" the star with all the interactions that happen on the way out.

Neutrinos don't interact with matter and so escape instantly...



I think you are a bit confused... C (the speed of light in a vacuum) is constant!! It's THE universal constant! Yes, light can travel slower than C is different mediums, but that isn't the speed of light lowering - it's the absorption and re-emission of photon speed that lowers... light speed is still light speed. The speed of light in a vacuum is a constant and does not waver - the example you cite is incorrect.

Now the second point, I said that if you can send information Faster than Light then you break Causality. This means, that if you could send a signal (or matter, anything with "information") faster than light, via Lorentz transformations and other mathematics the signal you send could arrive back to you BEFORE you send the signal out!

Imagine the signal says "Don't send this signal". You never send it, and it never returns telling you to not send it... so you send it. This is causality. Breaking causality will ruin physics as we know it, and it should be unbreakable. How can the effect occurr before the cause?

This is why FTL information travel is impossible. Either FTL is impossible, Causality is wrong or Special Relativity has everything wrong.

Choose!

Oh... and read this:

http://johncostella.webs.com/neutrino-blunder.pdf

Looks like the statistics and maths need another examination

Does quantum entanglement not send information at any distance in an instant?
 
Believe it or not, but neutrinos tunnelling through another dimension of spacetime to take a "shortcut" to point B makes far more scientific sense (and is more likely) than the neutrinos physically travelling faster than light!!

Yes but I have seen no mention on quantum tunnelling as a valid theory for this yet. They are still suggesting straight line point A to B travel
 
People take the C being constant too literally. There is no real reason why C cannot be faster than vacuum constant and we have already proved many times that light can travel far slower than the vacuum constant.
Putting something in light's way slows it down. But if you put nothing in its way then you get it moving at c. To get it to move faster how can you put less than nothing in its way?

When you say 'there's no real reason' what are you basing that on? Anything more than your gut feeling based on little to no real experience with physics of this type?

Also, sending a signal faster than light wouldn't mean sending a signal back in time. What it means is that by current theory the effect would happen before the cause. Another thing take too literally. They are saying the signal would be there before you see it, mimicking time travel. But it isn't time travel at all.
You should look up what relativity actually says. Faster than light means altering the causal structure of a system. The light cone of an event divides the space-time into 3 regions, those connected to the event by time-like vectors, null vectors and space-like vectors. These regions are mapped into themselves by Lorentz transforms, so if something travels faster than light to another point in space-time these exists a frame of reference where the second event happens BEFORE the first. If the something moves slower than light than it remains within the light cone and every frame of reference has its destination event occur after the emission event.

More formally, suppose a particle is emitted at event E1 at time t1 and absorbed at event E2 at time t2. If the particle moves slower than light then all frames of reference will have t1<t2, ie emission occurs before absorption. If the particle moves faster than the speed of light then there exist frames where t2<t1, absorption happens before emission.

This stuff is pretty simple relativity, it's covered in 1st year courses. Anyone competent at A Level mechanics mathematics can pick it up without too much bother.

But the E=MC2 hasn't stood up to everything questioned about it, a lot of the questions we simply haven't been able to test but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be asked.
Special relativity has passed every test it's been put under, which includes all particle physics and all gravitational experiments since SR appears in both *** and GR.

For instance, send a football beyond the speed of light to a destination. When the ball arrives at it's destination and it has stopped you should be able to see the ball stationary at it's new destination, but the light reflecting from the ball is still travelling to get there from where it came. Will we see two balls superimposed over each other when the light finally catches up? We simply do not know but that is something E=MC2 says can only be impossible and at the same time other proven theories say is the only possible outcome.
I really think you need to learn some physics before you try to tell others what it says. This is what I was referring to, science in the news brings out the people who don't know science but think they do and then proceed to tell people their impression, their mistaken impression, of what science says.

All we can truly say is that E=MC2 has been 'accurate enough' to help us discover more things and like all things science it is entirely possible that it is entire wrong.
No, it is not entirely possible that it is entirely wrong. It is entirely possible that relativity is only 99.9999% accurate and messes up in the 7th or 10th decimal place. It is obviously very accurate else we'd not even be able to turn on the LHC, never mind use it to discover new physics. Newton is known to be not entirely right but that doesn't make him entirely wrong, you can still put a man on the Moon using Newtonian physics.

Scientific models aren't an all or nothing thing. When a better model comes along we don't throw out the old ones. We still teach people, including engineers, Newtonian physics even though it's surpassed in every possible way by better models. We still teach electromagnetism even though it too is surpassed in every possible way. They are much simpler than more accurate models but they are still accurate enough to be of use.

This reminds me of the BBC 10 o'clock news I just saw. It said things like "For a century relativity has not been challenged" but it HAS. It has been challenged by hundreds of different experiments all over the world. Every time you use a SatNav it is challenged and it passes! Even the BBC is reporting this poorly!

Does quantum entanglement not send information at any distance in an instant?
No, there's always something which means you can't get the information unless you communicate classically, via some method which is bounded by light speed.
 
Basically it will either prove to be an error or something skewing the results or if it does prove to be correct then it is another variable that adds to our knowledge. How that changes special relativity or how special relativity fits into a standard model is up to science to sort out.

Either way it is interesting and I particularly like Heinrich Paes' suggestion that it might be possible for neutrinos to move through hidden extra dimensions of space and effectively take shortcuts through space-time.

I am not so enamoured with Dr John Costella who wrote:

"Any physicist worth even a fraction of their weight in neutrinos will be shaking their head, knowing intuitively that the OPERA result is simply wrong."

which seems to as premature and dismissive as anyone stating that Einstein has been proven wrong.

I look forward to hearing more.
 
Does quantum entanglement not send information at any distance in an instant?

Perhaps, but it's not 'information' so much as random gibberish. Each member of the pair could either be in say 'state a' or 'state b', but there's no way to influence which state they're in at any given time - it's just completely random.
 
Awesome thread. We have people discussing absolute cutting edge physics, quantum theories and debunking Einstein, all on n a forum where threads like "spec me wallet" are quite common.
 
Yes but I have seen no mention on quantum tunnelling as a valid theory for this yet. They are still suggesting straight line point A to B travel

New Scientist mention it in an article...

Does quantum entanglement not send information at any distance in an instant?

That is something totally different... one important point is that the particles are NOT sending information to each other... they can't, because of the above.

Entanglement is obviously not explained, but we can rule out the particles sending information to each other because it occurrs much much faster than light speed
 
This is just a PR stunt to take our attention away from the fact CERN and the LHC haven't witnessed the Higgs boson yet.
 
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