Differences in Pay

[Aero]

Whilst I agree that IT are a vital part of a business they are often there as a support service and as people have posted earlier they are a drain on the finances of a company. They are not necessarily the source of income for an organization. Therefore I can see why they are paid a lower grade of salary.

Just like a receptionist, yes their role is important and vital to the company and how it operates but there will always be people willing to fill that position at a reasonable price.

But in relation to the contractor aspect, yes they get paid more but you also generally find they get no paid holidays, no sick pay, no added benefits & very little job security. If redundancies start coming round they are usually the first out of the door.

 

[M1k3H]

Every successive generation has had it better than the last. There are inequalities of course though.

The problem is governance, corporations and corruption.

The laws of economics are such that the large corporations should suffer from such dis-economies of scale that they cannot compete with medium sized companies, however they manage to game the system in their favour. It's not the corporations at fault though, they're simply neutral entities who will do whatever is in their best interests. It's governance and corruption that's the problem.

In the US and UK there are massive tax loopholes intentionally written into legislation. In the US and UK we have ministers giving access to lobbies, and being rewarded after their ministerial career with a nice fat directorship.

The 1% really are the issue - but we let them be the issue. We don't vote them out. We vote like sheep for the same political parties who will by and large maintain the status quo. We vote for individuals who are career politicians, and a career politician by default will be the wrong choice for politics.

We need to start voting for people who have a career outside politics behind them, who never intended to be a politician. We need to gut the political parties by cutting away their funding and having them funded by the state.

Then we'll see a better level of governance and less corruption.

totally agree with all these. Well said. I read today on the news that Switzerland made a deal with Greece to reveal banking records so they can tax those who hide their incomes, and what happened? Everyone moved accounts to Singapore. Talk about not giving a **** about your country. Those people should be left in the middle of a city along with the people starving right now, see what happens.

 

[HarryPainful]

But in relation to the contractor aspect, yes they get paid more but you also generally find they get no paid holidays, no sick pay, no added benefits & very little job security. If redundancies start coming round they are usually the first out of the door.

On the job security, what job is secure now?

I know exactly how long I am going to be somewhere on a contract, it might get extended it might not but I know exactly where I am, I make enough to keep my skills up to date, I'm turning contracts down at the moment for citrix and vmware work.

On the flip side a few of my friends who are (or were) perm have been made redundant, they were given 3 months or so notice as the IT function was outsourced and one guy is struggling to find work because he was a typical perm guy, clock on, clock off go home.

My point is, to get a decent salary or wage in IT I think its a personality thing as well as a skill thing, you can always learn new skills but it takes a certain personality to push themselves to learn those skills, a lot of perm staff I have known think they should be sent on training courses and spoon fed in a class room.

 

[subbass]

Whilst I don't agree what the OP posted and like repeated a million times already - IT it is an expense and staff are easily replaceable. What I don't agree with is the perception that IT is all about pressing a few buttons and rebooting the PC (except perhaps for 1st line). And to the person who said network support is no different to shelf stacking??
It's no rocket science or performing heart surgery but does make me think how many of you who say that have actually worked at 3rd line and beyond or even a purely networking role?

It's safe to say most people here are computer literate but connecting your overclocked PC to your D-link router is not "networking"

 

[Mr^B]

I interview contract developers all the time, and for the most part they are not very good (£450-£550/day rate bracket).

Out of maybe 50 interviews, I've recommended 2 hires.

If they earned more than me, I would find this irritating.

 

[King Damager]

Get a better job, or work harder and justify a raise, maybe starting with not browsing OCUK at work

This.

I already know that I'll get a good salary in my chosen career path. It's part of the reason I chose my career. Something I found vaguely interesting and hat pays well...

I'm working in finance and I'll get paid well, but my job will be a massive part of my life, and will probably cause me stress outside of working hours.

kd

 

[bJN]

There it is!

I'm a contractor and I see the same thing all the time as well.

So many times I have been soooo close to telling them, "Well if you were any use at your job, I would probably not be here!"

Contracting is great, I wont get out of bed for anything less than £250 a day and some other guys I know think that is pittance!!!

This is very true.

I started my first job in IT as a contractor at 19 (started last August).

The job, however, wasn't paid that great and the work was quite menial. However this is simply the first step of the ladder. I was working in a project team consisting wholly of contractors apart from the Project Manager. I was simply there as the "bottom" level that would deal with all the IT Support under the Technical Architect. To be honest, I was doing the Technical Architect's job a lot of the time, but probably at less than a quarter of his wage. Sure, it infuriates me, but that is life. He's been in the industry probably longer than I have been alive - but it's the experience that counts!

I'm now coming out of this contract and being taken on as permanent staff which is excellent to me - it is pure and simple job security, which is what I like at this stage in my life.

Contracting is a brilliant experience, but I would only want to do it again once I have sufficient knowledge and experience to demand these "ludicrous" wages. I simply took a gamble on a six month contract in order to get in to the IT Industry as I have no useful IT qualifications and chose not to pursue the university path. As it stands, it has paid off.

 

[HarryPainful]

I interview contract developers all the time, and for the most part they are not very good (£450-£550/day rate bracket).

Out of maybe 50 interviews, I've recommended 2 hires.

If they earned more than me, I would find this irritating.

Hmm, I would say the problem here is the agency you are using to find them or something to do with your vetting process.

25/1 ratio is pretty ridiculous.

 

[bluesouljah]

There it is!

I'm a contractor and I see the same thing all the time as well.

So many times I have been soooo close to telling them, "Well if you were any use at your job, I would probably not be here!"

Contracting is great, I wont get out of bed for anything less than £250 a day and some other guys I know think that is pittance!!!

Yeah, it's all about perspective. For being a permie, the company owes you nothing for two years and can get rid of you within a six month probation period. As a contractor you might have the same deal, a contract for three or six months, so how is that different? People equate risk in different ways.

I find contracting much better because its always a definite period. If it's not the best client, then you know there is an end. I'd never get stuck in a dead end job. I don't stress when a contract ends because I know I have my war chest and after working on major projects, yes, probably time for a month off. Its a better work balance for me. Guess it all depends on your skillset.

 

[mattyprice4004]

I share my offices with a load of people who earn less than half of what I do - they know what I earn and I know what they do.

We just get on with it.

 

[Mr-White]

I remember working for a company a few years back and the contractor there was about my age doing a similar job but was earning literally 3 times more. Although he was sacked not longer after I started for not doing what he was asked to do lol.

The problem is if you were earning £30k but your work colleagues were only earning £25k you wouldn't be moaning. I believe it's because you're not feeling like you're valued as much as your fellow employees. And yes some people are lucky they fall into jobs were they're paid ridiculous salaries for little work, that's just life.

MW

 

[xxalxx]

You are in a role where if you cannot do the job there are hundreds more people available, who will more often than not do the job for even less than you are on now.

Either skill up into a role that has specialist skills, or move to another industry.

I promoted a chap from 1st to 2nd line last month, I had replaced him before the day was out.

 

[A2Z]

I promoted a chap from 1st to 2nd line last month, I had replaced him before the day was out.

Haha what did he do wrong? Surely you would try extra hard to not mess anything up on the first day after being promoted..

 

[anything I don't mind]

You are in a role where if you cannot do the job there are hundreds more people available, who will more often than not do the job for even less than you are on now.

Either skill up into a role that has specialist skills, or move to another industry.

I promoted a chap from 1st to 2nd line last month, I had replaced him before the day was out.

I can't believe, after i have repeated myself a million times, as someone pointed out, that people are still misunderstanding what I meant and the point of the thread.

Another example that came to me was a chef. You have a chef or cook in one restaurant making steak and chips and he earns more because the restaurant charges more for the food. A cook that works in a very expensive restaurant is seen as at the top of his field. Even though he is making the same steak and chips that you find down the street at a pub, where the cook is on half his salary. It is in this same way that I would like to try and encourage IT people to value their service more and expect more from big organisations.

Telling me "that is life" is pointless, i aware what is life and that this is life, that however is the point of the thread to try and change the image of IT sysadmin/system support.

Of course it is within the interest of employers to try and make out as if their employees and specifically IT are expendable and as such deserve less of a salary. I realy don't think that every job in IT is as easily replaceable as people on here try and make out. I know this because my bosses do interviews to try and hire people and they say that the level of competence and experience is a lot lower than people make out. People think that there are an abundance of highly skilled and experienced IT staff that are just waiting to work for half your salary. That is absolutely incorrect and ridiculously wrong. Even if that was the case, i would still continue to try and convince people that they should demand more money for their services etc.

I said i was not going to repeat myself again, but i did.

 

[Basher]

I can't believe, after i have repeated myself a million times, as someone pointed out, that people are still misunderstanding what I meant and the point of the thread.

Another example that came to me was a chef. You have a chef or cook in one restaurant making steak and chips and he earns more because the restaurant charges more for the food. A cook that works in a very expensive restaurant is seen as at the top of his field. Even though he is making the same steak and chips that you find down the street at a pub, where the cook is on half his salary. It is in this same way that I would like to try and encourage IT people to value their service more and expect more from big organisations.

Telling me "that is life" is pointless, i aware what is life and that this is life, that however is the point of the thread to try and change the image of IT sysadmin/system support.

Of course it is within the interest of employers to try and make out as if their employees and specifically IT are expendable and as such deserve less of a salary. I realy don't think that every job in IT is as easily replaceable as people on here try and make out. I know this because my bosses do interviews to try and hire people and they say that the level of competence and experience is a lot lower than people make out. People think that there are an abundance of highly skilled and experienced IT staff that are just waiting to work for half your salary. That is absolutely incorrect and ridiculously wrong. Even if that was the case, i would still continue to try and convince people that they should demand more money for their services etc.

I said i was not going to repeat myself again, but i did.

You've missed the point.

It's difficult for the business to value IT when it is sometime unclear as to the value they are offering. You're talking bits and bytes, they're talking cash flow, revenue and profit.

If you can start to communicate your activities in that language, you will start to be valued more.

Add to that that IT support is a saturated market. LOTS of people can do it, as it's relatively straightforward.

How would you like the business to perceive you? Someone who knows a lot? Someone who is focussed on IT problems? Someone who resolves problems that matter to the business? Someone who will just do anything?

 

[PeterNem]

Another example that came to me was a chef. You have a chef or cook in one restaurant making steak and chips and he earns more because the restaurant charges more for the food. A cook that works in a very expensive restaurant is seen as at the top of his field. Even though he is making the same steak and chips that you find down the street at a pub, where the cook is on half his salary.

Bad example. If the chef in the pub is really that good, he needs to go find work in a better restaurant. The world needs cheap pubs, and if we had to pay executive chef wages to get a steak, chips and a beer everywhere we went, Wetherspoons wouldn't be very busy! There's a world of difference between a poorly cooked £7.99 pub rump steak and the sort of thing you'd find at a decent steak house. In the poor restaurant, the chef is providing a commodity service (heating some food up). In the decent restaurant, the chef is actually providing something that is differentiated in some way from the cheaper location.

 

[anything I don't mind]

You've missed the point.

It's difficult for the business to value IT when it is sometime unclear as to the value they are offering. You're talking bits and bytes, they're talking cash flow, revenue and profit.

If you can start to communicate your activities in that language, you will start to be valued more.

Add to that that IT support is a saturated market. LOTS of people can do it, as it's relatively straightforward.

How would you like the business to perceive you? Someone who knows a lot? Someone who is focussed on IT problems? Someone who resolves problems that matter to the business? Someone who will just do anything?

The IT market is not as saturated as you might think. Sure anyone can work a PC but not everyone can work in IT. I think you might be getting the two mixed up. Just like a lot of people can use word and adobe photoshop, not everyone can be a legal secretary or work in marketing.

This is the point i am trying to make, the image that sysadmin/system support have does not do justice do their actual function. The role has out grown its classification if you will.

 

[anything I don't mind]

Bad example. If the chef in the pub is really that good, he needs to go find work in a better restaurant. The world needs cheap pubs, and if we had to pay executive chef wages to get a steak, chips and a beer everywhere we went, Wetherspoons wouldn't be very busy! There's a world of difference between a poorly cooked £7.99 pub rump steak and the sort of thing you'd find at a decent steak house. In the poor restaurant, the chef is providing a commodity service (heating some food up). In the decent restaurant, the chef is actually providing something that is differentiated in some way from the cheaper location.

Well that is what i am saying. How a service such as sysadmin/system support can vary. Even though it is the same service (steak and chips), there might be that little bit extra which warrants you actually being employed by the large organisation (or expensive restaurant). The difference is that the chef gets more money for that little bit extra he has, while the sysadmin does not.

 

[aardvark]

sorry, but imo IT people are way over paid. the vast majority is not difficult and the people who can do it are ten a penny. unless you can do something really special expect your wages to go down as highly educated chinese/indians undercut you in the future.

 

[Basher]

The IT market is not as saturated as you might think. Sure anyone can work a PC but not everyone can work in IT. I think you might be getting the two mixed up. Just like a lot of people can use word and adobe photoshop, not everyone can be a legal secretary or work in marketing.

This is the point i am trying to make, the image that sysadmin/system support have does not do justice do their actual function. The role has out grown its classification if you will.

I disagree. Many people can do systems admin jobs.

Anyway, the rest of my post was more what I was trying to get at - could you answer those queries?