Soldato
Yes, the sysadmin does... if he quits winging and goes and makes something of himself and looks for those better opportunities rather than sitting on a forum and moaning. That is my point.
Differences in Pay
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Yes, the sysadmin does... if he quits winging and goes and makes something of himself and looks for those better opportunities rather than sitting on a forum and moaning. That is my point.
Do you work in IT?
I'm not arguing that someone who has a decent skills set and who is in demand will suffer for job security as there is often more work available to them. Its the contractors who are new to contract and who don't necessarily keep up their skill set who will suffer with stability/security.
think Airbus has a 6 year fully filled order book and is still getting new orders, so i should be pretty safe for a while
I recruit a fair bit - and the way you're presenting it is the wrong way around.
When we recruit we have a position open to do 'function x'. Now, function x generally has a market price to it. The more general it is, the more people there are about to fulfill that role, and typically this drives down the costs of that role. By costs, I mean salaries & benefits.
The opposite of that is that more specialised skills means a reduced pool of people to recruit from, and typically this drives UP costs, so salary/benefits. Somebody with more specialist skills typically gets paid more than a generalist.
The idea that you should earn more because other people in your organisation too is a bogus one, and doesn't work. It's not about the person you're recruiting, it's about the position you're filling.
We work in multiple sectors for example - from banking, to insurance, to retail. We'll often move people from one sector to another as well due to project constraints. Those people will get a package based on the general offering for their function, and how hard it is for us to fulfill the role.
The only time sector affects pay is when there's specific skills in that sector that are more specialised - does that make sense? Somebody with back-room banking IT for example is worth more to us than somebody who isn't, and is also harder to recruit. As they're harder to recruit we offer a better package.
Business is not generally altruistic in nature. You need to be competitive, and you do that by paying your staff what you can recruit staff for to fulfill a function. What you don't do is over-pay to be 'nice' - if you do that, you're not competitive. That's the nature of a free market.
The idea that people get paid what they ask for is an interesting one too - in some respects it's true.
We recruit for position X, that requires certain skills. We get people in and we think somebody has those relevant skills, and asks to be paid 10,000 pounds (keeping the maths simple). Our budget may be up to 20,000 pounds however, and as we believe they can do the job, we *would* have been willing to pay more. The fact they asked for 10k means they get paid 10k.
Conversely, we get people asking for much more than is in budget. That takes some justification, but DOES happen. More often than not people are recruited above budget when they offer additional skills that could benefit either the specific job or the organisation as a whole. Then it's a management judgement call as to whether they're worth the investment.
What you need to be aware of is that recruiting is generally by function, not by people. I know it's a little difficult to separate.
It's similar when you get people wanting to be paid way beyond the normal pay point for functions simply because 'they've been here for 10 years'. Sometimes it's worth paying more due to experience, sometimes it isn't. You just have to remember you're paying for a functional role, and not a person.
You want to earn more? Ignore what everyone else is earning - just get out there and skill up in to a more specialised area that fewer people can fulfill, and the wages/packages will rise with it.
That's what your solicitors at 800/hour + have done.
On the contractor point by the way - I've been a contractor since the mid-90s. I rarely see the reason for going permanent.
The job security one is a common 'issue' when people consider contracting. Sure if you're an employee you get holidays/sickness etc. but you can budget for that as a contractor. The thing is though it's not that difficult for a company to make you redundant anyway, and in doing so they pay you x amount in redundancy pay - that's all you're getting. Again, budgetting properly then you can cover yourself for this potential cost too.
Some people don't suit contracting, some do. Risk & reward is what it's about I guess.
The job security one is a common 'issue' when people consider contracting. Sure if you're an employee you get holidays/sickness etc. but you can budget for that as a contractor. The thing is though it's not that difficult for a company to make you redundant anyway, and in doing so they pay you x amount in redundancy pay - that's all you're getting. Again, budgetting properly then you can cover yourself for this potential cost too.
Some people don't suit contracting, some do. Risk & reward is what it's about I guess.
with contracting though there is the hassle of having to go out and find work all the time, that puts a fair few people off.
Soldato
thats the best post ive read all day, so true.
Not true at all, though.
If you want, carry on moaning about pay or - if you want to earn more, think about why your pay might be low and do something about it.
Soldato
Groen... I just remembered you were the guy who posted that you couldn't get to work on time but refused to get up earlier to account for any potential travel delays etc.
Having just looked at a few more of your threads, I'd say you're lucky to have a job at all and are probably not in a particularly strong position to be grumbling about pay! Talk about having a bad attitude and poor work ethic.
Case 1 (Lazy):
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18373046
Case 2 (MTFU):
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18352729
Case 3 (call the whambulance):
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18346446
Case 4 (Lateness... this one really takes the biscuit!):
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18242503
That's right... 15 hours late in the space of a couple of months. If I employed you I'd be looking for an excuse to get rid of you, and if no excuse presented itself I'd be passing you over for promotion every time until you left of your own accord. And you wonder why you might be paid less than your colleagues...
Having just looked at a few more of your threads, I'd say you're lucky to have a job at all and are probably not in a particularly strong position to be grumbling about pay! Talk about having a bad attitude and poor work ethic.
Case 1 (Lazy):
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18373046
Groen said:
Case 2 (MTFU):
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18352729
Groen said:
Case 3 (call the whambulance):
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18346446
Groen said:
Case 4 (Lateness... this one really takes the biscuit!):
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18242503
Groen said:
That's right... 15 hours late in the space of a couple of months. If I employed you I'd be looking for an excuse to get rid of you, and if no excuse presented itself I'd be passing you over for promotion every time until you left of your own accord. And you wonder why you might be paid less than your colleagues...
And you wonder why you're not valued, Groen?
There was us trying to have an intelligent debate about why IT might be undervalued, and it turns out that you're just lazy and rubbish at your job.
True, which is another reason I focus on resellers/VARs and providers. Haven't been out of work since 1994.
Soldato
Wow no wonder you don't get paid enough if you don't take your work seriously lol
MW
MW
Soldato
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2005
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Busted OP. LOL
Totally, I could make much more by going contracting, however my reasons for not doing it (at the moment anyway
) is mainly due to location.I'm not wanting to work away from home 4 nights a week which if I went contracting I'd likely have to do as not much contract work in the areas I specialise in down here. We're not wanting to move away, my wife has her job here and what little family we have is here too.
So ended up working as a permy but not for the job security though as I've first hand experience that doesn't count for much nowadays.
You missed my going down the pub at lunch thread, that one was golden 
I think it was called, drinking at work.
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18329253
I think it was called, drinking at work.http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18329253
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You missed my going down the pub at lunch thread, that one was golden
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18329253
Associate
Man am I looking forward to Groans response to this post.
And he even said earlier he doesn't feel lucky to have a job... you really should considering. There is not that many employers who would put up with your ****.
Imagine how many hard working people there are out of work who would love the opportunity to replace you...