DirectX and OpenGL will start offering low-level access in order to reduce draw overhead

oldestgregg · 7 Mar 2014 at 23:17

humbug said:
no one i know who games on PC has an xBox, they might have a PS3/4 but not an xBox, they simply don't believe in having to pay to play.

Because they are able to show better performance in games, take that away, no one will pay £280 for a CPU when its no better than a £140 CPU.

All 3 of my PC gaming friends have Xbox ones and 2 of the 3 also have ps4s

PhysicsMan94 · 7 Mar 2014 at 23:18

Puppetmaster said:
I agree with you and it being Windows 9+ only is fine with me but imo that relies on Windows 9 being good. Don't get me wrong Windows 8 has some decent things about it but myself and many others I know (Gamers and Non Gamers) just don't like it.

Indeed, I have Windows 7 on my rig at the moment (and it's great of course, better than XP in my opinion) but Windows 8.1 on my laptop (not touch screen) - and I agree that Win 8/8.1 is just not right for desktop and laptop, it works great for tablets and touch screen laptops (ultrabooks and such I guess) but it just isn't suited to desktops.

So I hope that Microsoft moves to a split system with Windows 9 - one design similar to Windows 7 for desktops and another similar to Windows 8.1 for touch screen laptops and tablets.

ubersonic · 7 Mar 2014 at 23:21

nitram100 said:
Will believe it when I see it. All I know is Star Citizen is using Mantle, which is all I care about.

SC is using DX mainly with Mantle as an option because the game is being designed as a technology showcase as much as a game so their are adding all sorts to it, they are aiming for a high requirements jaw dropping PC title like the ones of yore. The issue though is that SC is a PhysX game and PhysX won't work with Mantle for obvious reasons so SC will look much better in DX even if it runs better in Mantle.

Wish I could use my GTX780 as a dedicated PhysX card and my CF 290's for gaming lol.

Rofflay · 7 Mar 2014 at 23:34

Its served its purpose hopefully Mantle dies right after DX 12 and they all come into glorious harmony again and work for a better DX. It is not ideal when MS have that monopoly but i guess Mantle has been a plus point.

I probably would have bought into it if Maxwell didnt look so good to be honest and i always prefer Nvidia as the quality is higher for the premium and the drivers and layouts work for me. Mantle and Freesync look good but with DX 12 going to be way more mainstream than Mantle and Maxwell rocking theres only going to be one winner in 2014. Without AMD these things would be a hell of a lot slower coming if at all. Now we will have almost equal API to PS4 except tons more power and 4K 60fps available to us if we choose.

HAHA its only been out a few months and its already five years behind

GoogalyMoogaly · 7 Mar 2014 at 23:41

humbug said:
no one i know who games on PC has an xBox, they might have a PS3/4 but not an xBox, they simply don't believe in having to pay to play.

Because they are able to show better performance in games, take that away, no one will pay £280 for a CPU when its no better than a £140 CPU.

I have a PC and an XBOX. I find it much harder playing games with my console friends if I don't have a console. There are also some games that are console exclusives. You don't have to have an XBOX Live Gold account to be able to play games, just to play games online. And you do get 24 free games over the course of the year for the ~£30 that costs you. I probably spend more than £30 a year on steam and get less than 24 games for that!
To be honest the thing that stops me gaming on consoles more is partly down to not being able to use keyboard and mouse.

As for the second point, maybe some people use their PC for more than just gaming?
I think outside of gaming there are still scenarios where an Intel CPU is faster than an AMD CPU (I imagine a lot of people now people now have their fingers in their ears going "la la la I can't hear you" at the suggestion that something exists that is better than the AMD version), for me one of these scenarios is video encoding. I've used a FX-8350 for encoding and a 4770K and a 3930K and in my experience the 3930K is the fastest, followed by the 4770K and finally the FX-8350.

If all someone does on their PC is play games then maybe they could just get a console?

I mean it is sort of what they're designed for and they're cheaper (which seemed important with the CPUs earlier). In PC terms the console hardware might not be high end, but they do tend to make better use out of it. Even with Mantle/DX12/OGL I doubt PC will be able to optimise as well as consoles.

Regarding the title (which I know Greg is only quoting) I'm not sure that even if DX12 is successful (by that I mean does what it says and is widely adopted) that it's the end of Mantle. Mantle will still be as good as it was always going to be. The time when Mantle might have been the only API supported was so far down the line that developers wanting to make use of it would have to support it alongside DirectX. Which they would still be free to do with DX12.
While Mantle supports such a limited number of cards and OpenGL is having more stuff thrown at it's codebase in the hope that something good sticks, I think DirectX will be with us for a while to come yet. If we can have a better DirectX then so much the better.

I mean apparently Mantle is what the developers wanted (who'd have thought they wanted an API that supports only a small sub-section of AMD graphics cards) so why would that suddenly change just because DirectX gets some improvements. Also I notice it is said that Mantle IS what developers want, not Mantle WILL BE, when finished, what developers want. This suggests that they want Mantle as it is in it's current state.

For me personally if DirectX 12 is able to come close to Mantle performs then I will be happy. If Mantle is a 45% improvement over DX11 and DX12 is a 35-40% improvement or something like that then I would be happy. The thing with DirectX is that I would in theory be able to switch between AMD and Nvidia cards as I saw fit. Something that is very useful to me as I like to buy something because I want it rather than because it has the logo I support on it.
I think it will be good if Mantle does stick around even if DirectX 12 is the vast improvement we hope it is as it should serve to keep Microsoft honest and hopefully stop the stagnation. We do have to hope that whoever AMD hand Mantle over to manages to keep it competitive and it doesn't go the OpenGL route.

I think the problem Mantle has is that out of principle it might not get adopted by Intel or Nvidia even after it is handed over to this 3rd party. DirectX has, historically, supported Nvidia, Intel and AMD cards. Surely this will factor into developer take up?

I also have to laugh a bit at everyone giving credit to AMD for this, as this whole thing is cyclic isn't it?
Would AMD have come up with Mantle had it not been for DirectX and OpenGL before it? Before that OpenGL and DirectX drive each other, one probably wouldn't have done X if the other hadn't done Y. Maybe we should blame AMD for not coming up with Mantle earlier? If they'd have come up with Mantle back when DirectX and OpenGL started out then maybe we wouldn't be in this situation now?
So maybe we should blame DirectX's stagnation on AMD taking so long?

humbug · 7 Mar 2014 at 23:50

Yes i know about MS free games, i have seen it, you also get it on Win 8/.1, there is a reason why they are free games

That was as far as i got. put off by the wall of text. sorry

Rofflay · 7 Mar 2014 at 23:54

If all someone does on their PC is play games then maybe they could just get a console?
I mean it is sort of what they're designed for and they're cheaper (which seemed important with the CPUs earlier). In PC terms the console hardware might not be high end, but they do tend to make better use out of it. Even with Mantle/DX12/OGL I doubt PC will be able to optimise as well as consoles.

And pay £45 per game? You may get the hardware cheap but you cough it up in software. Now imagine DX 12 being just as good which it probably will with a little box running a 750TI and a 4570K where you pay more up front for the hardware but less in software. I bought Crysis 3 for £10 BF4 £15 and that box would kick the PS4 around all day long.

Im suprised people still buy consoles for anything but the controller and sofa gaming ability and the interface. Steam will change this with thier controller and big picture.

GoogalyMoogaly · 8 Mar 2014 at 00:06

Rofflay said:
And pay £45 per game? You may get the hardware cheap but you cough it up in software. Now imagine DX 12 being just as good which it probably will with a little box running a 750TI and a 4570K where you pay more up front for the hardware but less in software. I bought Crysis 3 for £10 BF4 £15 and that box would kick the PS4 around all day long.

Im suprised people still buy consoles for anything but the controller and sofa gaming ability and the interface. Steam will change this with thier controller and big picture.

Yeah, I'd forgotten how much of a price premium the new consoles had on games. The previous gen was actually not too bad near the end.

I guess it's something would would need to be balanced out against the cost of hardware upgrades over the life of the PC/console and how many games you buy.

GoogalyMoogaly · 8 Mar 2014 at 00:08

humbug said:
Yes i know about MS free games, i have seen it, you also get it on Win 8/.1, there is a reason why they are free games
That was as far as i got. put off by the wall of text. sorry

Not to worry, I'm sure you have the same issue with a lot of DM's posts.
What's the reason they're free? Because they're old?

~Dockie · 8 Mar 2014 at 00:12

If it gives both Nvidia and AMD users a boost in performance then i'm all for it. A single API that supports both vendors at low level is great for everyone.

Right now though Mantle is already here (in beta form, atleast) and if DX12 can give Nvidia users the boost that Mantle gave AMD users then you guys have something to look forward to.

who doesn't like MOAR POWA! especially when its free?

cwgk91 · 8 Mar 2014 at 00:26

It will be interesting to see how much performance dx12 gives. If its anything like mantle offers then it'll be a step forward. Not too bothered as long as it doesn't involve another windows upgrade

Boomstick777 · 8 Mar 2014 at 00:28

Xbox One is getting DirectX 12 support as well..

This could mean it's entirely possible to allow current gen GPU's to support Direct X12, I guess MS and Vendors will make that decision.. Might be a selling point for AMD / Nvidia to have DX12 on the new GPU boxes. If my Ti's can utilize DirectX 12 and their is lower overhead. Might not even need to upgrade.. (I will anyway though

)

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/p/directx12.aspx

humbug · 8 Mar 2014 at 00:30

GoogalyMoogaly said:
Not to worry, I'm sure you have the same issue with a lot of DM's posts.
What's the reason they're free? Because they're old?

They are the games no one is willing to pay anything for.

mmj_uk · 8 Mar 2014 at 00:48

Boomstick777 said:
Xbox One is getting DirectX 12 support as well..

I would have thought that Xbox One would already have lots of low level access, it's probably more a case of evolving the DirectX in Xbox One to support a wider variety of PC based GPU's and then sticking a 12 on the end.

TheRealDeal · 8 Mar 2014 at 03:49

Boomstick777 said:
Xbox One is getting DirectX 12 support as well..

This could mean it's entirely possible to allow current gen GPU's to support Direct X12, I guess MS and Vendors will make that decision.. Might be a selling point for AMD / Nvidia to have DX12 on the new GPU boxes. If my Ti's can utilize DirectX 12 and their is lower overhead. Might not even need to upgrade.. (I will anyway though )

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/p/directx12.aspx

If Xboxone is dx12 compatible then so should just about all of the amd range along with the ps4. On the Nvidia side there's nothing to go by apart from they just about fully support dx11.1/2. Can we take from this, apart from a few changes dx12 is changing not much apart from trying to equal mantle in a few area's.

Gregster · 8 Mar 2014 at 07:43

AWPC said:
Here's the thing MS are taking notice of PC more as:

1: Valve are trying to cut them out of by going Linux only. Gabe said a few days ago he does not expect problems in getting most of the Steam library running on Linux.
2: XB1 is tanking as game attach rates are poor PS4 is winning that battle. Outside North America XB1 is doing poorly.
3: Windows sales are flat as Win 8 is a disaster.

MS are losing the battle due to their top heavy management structures not having people who understand the key markets. MS used to get by as Gates was running the show & people were scared of losing their jobs. Gates was behind Win 7 & Xbox 360. Ballmer contributed very little which is why he is no longer around.

So you see MS need to dig back in & make the PC mainstream viable again its under siege from Tablets, Smartphones, Ipads, Netbooks all not running a Windows OS if MS cannot keep hold of Windows they will not last in the same format as they are now.

So more focus on DX12 is just MS playing safe plus they told AMD Mantle would not be allowed on XB1.
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...mantle-and-ps4-is-also-unlikely-is-mantle-doa

Some excellent and very valid points.

One thing that i don't have a clue on and maybe someone can answer me this.

Would it require new hardware for certain (DX12) or could it be backward compatible?

Rusty0611 · 8 Mar 2014 at 08:04

humbug said:
Yes i know about MS free games, i have seen it, you also get it on Win 8/.1, there is a reason why they are free games
That was as far as i got. put off by the wall of text. sorry

Well that's a shame because there were good points within it. If a handful of paragraphs is too much reading for you...

Calin Banc · 8 Mar 2014 at 10:17

Steampunk said:
Source?

If the SDK's not finished, and they are still working with the likes of Oxide and Frosbite to get it done, then what exactly are AMD supposed to give out to devs before it's finished?

AMD are obviously using the current Mantle devs as testers to help them build Mantle to the point where an SDK is released. Taking on more testers than they need is actually counter productive.

Maybe a small Czech developer who's known for a few small games and the perpetually never finished ARMA isn't a useful tester for AMD at the moment?

here you go buddy - http://forums.bistudio.com/showthre...ort-possible&p=2619606&viewfull=1#post2619606

One of the Bohemia devs finally came forward and gave a straight answer.

not for usual developers, only selected few ...

and what makes you think we didn't contacted AMD right when Mantle was first mentioned ?
again if you read, only very narrow group of selected developers gets and will get access ...

until there is some widely avaiable SDK or so ...

GoogalyMoogaly · 8 Mar 2014 at 10:51

humbug said:
They are the games no one is willing to pay anything for.

Nobody wanted to pay for Halo 3, Fable 3, Assassin's Creed 2, Dead Rising 2, Crackdown, etc.?

Ian Evey · 8 Mar 2014 at 11:00

I like consoles in general, but how can you play an fps with a controller unless you have always used them, Mouse and keyboard on a console would sway me to a console, nothing else really matters to me.

The reason i sold the xbox was no mouse support after playing cod. even though i was quite good it just really really annoyed me.