DirectX and OpenGL will start offering low-level access in order to reduce draw overhead

[humbug]

Way to much negativity and pessimism here. All the competition heating up in the PC market is a great thing. Those moaning about Microsoft and Direct X did you not enjoy playing games on your PC for the past god knows how many years? Mantle supports 1 game and all of sudden Microsoft is lacking and not supporting the PC industry. It's laughable really. I mean they only been here for 20+ years.

AMD did a great thing with Mantle and sparked some competition. Direct X12 will likely be awesome. At the end of the day if you can only enjoy 1 PC game now because it supports Mantle, and no other games because DX11 etc are so poor, maybe you're in the wrong hobby? Take up knitting perhaps, join a sewing circle. I think a lot of old lady's like to moan a lot to each other as well, so a lot the guys who post here would be right at home

I think people are realists.
You speak as tho Microsoft DX12 is already here, does what they claim and everything Microsoft is supperdooper.

Your putting a lot of enfficise on AMD only having this or that, Microsoft have nothing, all they have is a lot of bluster and a history of ignoring or activley undermining the PC gaming industry to promote their xBox eco system along with its recurring monthly fees.

Mantle is proven, DX12 does not exist, and your depending on a company that wants you to give up your PC and instead Pay Microsoft a fee to play on xBox.

Now i'm not saying your hopes are misplaced, you just need to be more aware of the politics here. Don't get your hopes up. Microsoft are not on your side, far from it, all they are doing here is putting out fires.

 

[Silent_Scone]

I wouldn't say it doesn't exist, I've been told (also there are tweets from a couple of years ago supporting it) they've been at it for quite a while now. It's more of a stretch to believe they're just conjuring this out of thin air. I'd definitely say Mantle has made them speed up the process though. Super obvious lol. Ideally, at best if we see some fundamental changes that means new supporting hardware being present as well. Or, if we get a lot of talking and not a lot of seeing, that will be a bit of a shame.

Don't forget Mantle even has been a long term project for AMD, and up until a few months ago nobody knew anything about it. They too kept it pretty close to the chest.

 

[Steampunk]

So you think an SDK that's tied in with a rival vendors GPUs is going to get swung out in the open like dollar for everyone to grab, namely Nvidia?

Obviously there are going to be procedural stages to go through. Just as there are with khronos or any interface. Obviously things would be a lot better if we lived in Care-a lot where everybody shares everything lol.

You mean like how AMD and Nvidia submit new things to MS or Khronos for inclusions in DX and OGL all the time? There's no need to wait for steering groups if you've already got the tech ready to go, but that's how closed standards become open standards a few years down the line.

 

[humbug]

I wouldn't say it doesn't exist, I've been told (also there are tweets from a couple of years ago supporting it) they've been at it for quite a while now. It's more of a stretch to believe they're just conjuring this out of thin air. I'd definitely say Mantle has made them speed up the process though. Super obvious lol. Ideally, at best if we see some fundamental changes that means new supporting hardware being present as well. Or, if we get a lot of talking and not a lot of seeing, that will be a bit of a shame.

Don't forget Mantle even has been a long term project for AMD, and up until a few months ago nobody knew anything about it. They too kept it pretty close to the chest.

The point that i'm making; Microsoft makes money from their xBox by charging Monthly fees to use xBox Live, which you need to play games.

The PC is in direct competition with them, this is why Microsoft have 'all but' ignored DX for the past 10 years, they had a monopily on PC gaming and they are hardly going to make real improvements to it when what they really want is for you to dump the PC and pay MS those fees to play on xBox.

You also need to remember that Game Developers found it increasingly difficult and expensive to get PC Gaming levels out of what Direct X currently is.

This had worked fairly 'but not entirely' well for them early on with the 360, then that became old and despite a lack of development the PC gaming experience grew ever wider.

Now MS, thanks ironically to AMD, have narrowed that gap again, somewhat.
Only this time AMD had a development tool up their sleeve thats as easy and inexpensive to use as the Console API's, and removes all the performance wrongs in DX.

Extremely inconvenient to Microsoft and their Monthly fee xBox eco system.

Microsoft say they are now listing and have an alternative to Mantle.
But do not forget they do not get any Monthly fees from you; or any newcomer yet to chose a gaming platform, The existence of Mantle is against their financial interests. promoting the PC gaming platform is also counter to their financial interests.

Microsoft do not want to replace Mantle, they just want it to go away.

 

[Silent_Scone]

You mean like how AMD and Nvidia submit new things to MS or Khronos for inclusions in DX and OGL all the time? There's no need to wait for steering groups if you've already got the tech ready to go, but that's how closed standards become open standards a few years down the line.

Yes, just like that.

Not me giving you my card details and asking you to sort out my bank for me lol.

Could you honestly see NV submitting anything to AMD? Hell, it's bad enough now with theories with GameWorks and sabotage to a library that a vendor can't even submit to, leave alone one that a vendor can submit to and hope for the best lol. You're working on the basis that AMD will have no involvement, which is hugely naive as they will most indefinitely have control over anything that is submitted by Nvidia.

 

[Silent_Scone]

The point that i'm making; Microsoft makes money from their xBox by charging Monthly fees to use xBox Live, which you need to play games.

The PC is in direct competition with them, this is why Microsoft have 'all but' ignored DX for the past 10 years, they had a monopily on PC gaming and they are hardly going to make real improvements to it when what they really want is for you to dump the PC and pay MS those fees to play on xBox.

You also need to remember that Game Developers found it increasingly difficult and expensive to get PC Gaming levels out of what Direct X currently is.

This had worked fairly 'but not entirely' well for them early on with the 360, then that became old and despite a lack of development the PC gaming experience grew ever wider.

Now MS, thanks ironically to AMD, have narrowed that gap again, somewhat.
Only this time AMD had a development tool up their sleeve thats as easy and inexpensive to use as the Console API's, and removes all the performance wrongs in DX.

Extremely inconvenient to Microsoft and their Monthly fee xBox eco system.

Microsoft say they are now listing and have an alternative to Mantle.
But do not forget they do not get any Monthly fees from you; or any newcomer yet to chose a gaming platform, The existence of Mantle is against their financial interests. promoting the PC gaming platform is also counter to their financial interests.

Microsoft do not want to replace Mantle, they just want it to go away.

That's fine, and couldn't agree more for the most part. Wouldn't begin to defend that DX isn't well overdue an overhaul. Although that doesn't change the fact that, as the title of the thread suggests, it makes Mantle very much pertinent rather quickly potentially.

 

[Steampunk]

Yes, just like that.

Not me giving you my card details and asking you to sort out my bank for me lol.

Could you honestly see NV submitting anything to AMD? Hell, it's bad enough now with theories with GameWorks and sabotage to a library that a vendor can't even submit to, leave alone one that a vendor can submit to and hope for the best lol. You're working on the basis that AMD will have no involvement, which is hugely naive as they will most indefinitely have control over anything that is submitted by Nvidia.

At this point, I don't know WTF you are talking about.

SDK are available for pretty much everything that needs it and everyone that wants it. Does Intel not put out SDK's in case AMD get it? Does Apple not put out SDKs in case Samsung see it? What makes you think AMD will not issue a Mantle SDK for developers for fear that Nvidia may see it?

Just like things like tessellation, one vendor brings a feature out first, and has that tech for a couple of years. It gets submitted to DX and OGL steering groups, while a second vendor claims said feature is unnecessary (because they don't have it). The feature gets added to a general API, the second vendor now supports it and says it's the best thing since sliced bread.

This has happened time and time again, why should Mantle's functionality be different? AMD have said they see this as the way to go and they want to pass Mantle off to an open steering group at some point.

Of course MS is going to do and say anything and everything to try and prevent this, because what they want more than anything is to control everything. I would not be surprised to see them welcome Mantle-like APIs into DX for that very reason. Embrace and extend.

 

[Silent_Scone]

They won't/will never release it to just anyone, that's why.

Send me an email when they do if you'd like to say I told you so . You don't turn down requests by eager developers, if anything they should be promoting it now. Instead they're not. Because they don't want just anyone looking at it, not to mention there is probably lengthy disclaimers. If Mantle ever gets to the point whereby it's controlled by a 3rd party I will paypal you 50 british pounds.

 

[humbug]

That's fine, and couldn't agree more for the most part. Wouldn't begin to defend that DX isn't well overdue an overhaul. Although that doesn't change the fact that, as the title of the thread suggests, it makes Mantle very much pertinent rather quickly potentially.

With respect did you even read what i said?

Don't get your hopes up, this is counter to Microsofts interest, all they want is for Mantle to go away so they can get back to Gimping PC Gaming so they stand a fighting chance of getting gamers on to their Console xBox Live monthly subscription platform.

 

[Steampunk]

They won't/will never release it to just anyone, that's why.

Send me an email when they do if you'd like to say I told you so . You don't turn down requests by eager developers, if anything they should be promoting it now. Instead they're not. Because they don't want just anyone looking at it, not to mention there is probably lengthy disclaimers.

AMD have said several times they intend to release the SDK, and it's in their own interests to do so.

How will AMD expect developers (small large, gaming or otherwise) to support Mantle without a SDK? Without widespread use Mantle can do nothing but fail. But you're suggesting that AMD will deliberately hamstring their own efforts to promote Mantle to developers by refusing to release a SDK?

 

[Silent_Scone]

With respect did you even read what i said?

Don't get your hopes up, this is counter to Microsofts interest, all they want is for Mantle to go away so they can get back to Gimping PC Gaming so they stand a fighting chance of getting gamers on to their Console xBox Live monthly subscription platform.

I did yes, you were quite disgruntled by Live fees and the recent state of outdated development tools, but that shouldn't reflect on what we don't know about DX12

 

[tommybhoy]

I don't see the point in the fuss over whether Mantle/Dx12/OGL will be the driving force, regardless what becomes the winner, every vendor will have to throw it's weight behind it or be left in the dust.

Could you honestly see NV submitting anything to AMD? Hell, it's bad enough now with theories with GameWorks and sabotage to a library that a vendor can't even submit to, leave alone one that a vendor can submit to and hope for the best lol. You're working on the basis that AMD will have no involvement, which is hugely naive as they will most indefinitely have control over anything that is submitted by Nvidia.

If Mantle is handed over to Khronos(like they publicly stated would be the case), Nvidia won't submit anything to AMD, they would simply write Mantle support into the driver as Mantle code would become standard.

There is mostly talk of Mantle failing as/and Nvidia won't support Mantle, what IF Mantle> DX12/OGL and indeed becomes successful?

As above Nvidia would have little option not to get on board.

 

[Silent_Scone]

AMD have said several times they intend to release the SDK, and it's in their own interests to do so.

How will AMD expect developers (small large, gaming or otherwise) to support Mantle without a SDK? Without widespread use Mantle can do nothing but fail. But you're suggesting that AMD will deliberately hamstring their own efforts to promote Mantle to developers by refusing to release a SDK?

They turned down Bohemia's requests. I don't see what the problem is with letting seasoned devs lose on it. Best part was, they didn't even want 10 million dollars for the pleasure . I'm sure there's a rational explanation though right.

 

[gpuerrilla]

Edited as Greg isnt such a bad guy just relaying the news.

It has been great then as it has made the industry wake up and move on. If a weak CPU can now have less overheads then just with the same benefits of mantle - you need a good GPU, which means CPU is dead (or less critical now).

Everyones a winner!

Way to much negativity and pessimism here. All the competition heating up in the PC market is a great thing. Those moaning about Microsoft and Direct X did you not enjoy playing games on your PC for the past god knows how many years? Mantle supports 1 game and all of sudden Microsoft is lacking and not supporting the PC industry. It's laughable really. I mean they only been here for 20+ years.

AMD did a great thing with Mantle and sparked some competition. Direct X12 will likely be awesome. At the end of the day if you can only enjoy 1 PC game now because it supports Mantle, and no other games because DX11 etc are so poor, maybe you're in the wrong hobby? Take up knitting perhaps, join a sewing circle. I think a lot of old lady's like to moan a lot to each other as well, so a lot the guys who post here would be right at home

Much better post from Broom summing it up nicely.

 

[jh30uk]

/me goes out to buy a Dual Core 2GHz Celeron CPU + Titan Black SLI.

 

[Gregster]

Let's be honest, it was inevitable that Microsoft® would come out with a new DX. I am forever hopeful that this will be just what the PC gaming industry needs and will give us what we deserve. We buy windows and so should be treated with the same respect that people who buy an Xbox get.

With OGL also pushing hard, this is also a wakeup for Microsoft® to act. Time will tell gents and I look forward to Open Standards in a big way

 

[humbug]

A very bitter thread opener which is a shame as it seems very personal and biased to the green camp.

Ignoring that fact, it has been great then as it has made the industry wake up and move on. If a weak CPU can now have less overheads then just with the same benefits of mantle - you need a good GPU, which means CPU is dead (or less critical now).

Everyones a winner!

This congers up some interesting cogitations.

Nvidia don't like Mantle because it gives AMD something significant which they don't have.

Microsoft feel the same way because it gets around them using their PC monopoly in Gimping PC Gaming by making it difficult to develop good PC games, thus taking away their xBox Live fee payers.

Intel also don't like it because it would get very difficult for them to justify twice the price of their CPU's if people couldn't see a significant difference in Gaming performance with them.

Ever feel like the outsider? Oh AMD why do you keep putting yourself in these situations? why don't you just conform or go away, eh?

 

[darket]

The way some people are talking on here you'd think Mantle was in every game and every upcoming game, it isnt , it's in ONE title, and its beta at best, there arn't any exclusive Mantle only titles with directx as an afterthought planned either, so for the titles in the future your still looking at "with added mantle support"

If Microsoft can do what they say then i'm all for it, it will stop a hell of a lot of pointless arguments and bring everything back on a level playing field.

 

[Orangey]

Are DX/GL gonna allow custom AFR alternatives in multi-GPU setups? Mantle was more than just CPU overhead. Stacked VRAM (one giant logical framebuffer) was even hinted at.

 

[Steampunk]

They turned down Bohemia's requests. I don't see what the problem is with letting seasoned devs lose on it. Best part was, they didn't even want 10 million dollars for the pleasure . I'm sure there's a rational explanation though right.

Source?

If the SDK's not finished, and they are still working with the likes of Oxide and Frosbite to get it done, then what exactly are AMD supposed to give out to devs before it's finished?

AMD are obviously using the current Mantle devs as testers to help them build Mantle to the point where an SDK is released. Taking on more testers than they need is actually counter productive.

Maybe a small Czech developer who's known for a few small games and the perpetually never finished ARMA isn't a useful tester for AMD at the moment?