Caporegime
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And here come the arguments of speculation and semantics 
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DirectX and OpenGL will start offering low-level access in order to reduce draw overhead
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Soldato
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title of my thread said:
So again mods,why is this thread still up?? Why are people being redirected to this thread:
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18586638
My one had a few hundred replies and a few thousand views already.
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One thing I noticed: all the Nvidia GDC talks are about DX 11. The talks about DX 12 are all MS or AMD. Given that AMD must have had advanced knowledge of anything in the XBone as they built the CPU/GPU, I'm totally speculating a couple of things:
1. Mantle is getting fast tracked into DX as a thin API. No extra hardware features, but better tools and closer-to-the metal API. Maybe MS and AMD have worked on it together a lot longer than we know about. MS gets more performance and better tools on XB and PC, AMD does all the work and gets a competitive advantage over Nvidia. MS don't care about Nvidia as they have no relevance to the console market. It isn't the first time MS have unilaterally changed DX (the killing of the hardware sound stack).
2. DX 12 is a superset of DX 11. The XBone APU contains secret sauce for DX 12 that is about to be revealed along with a new, thinner API. Having designed and built the XBone APU, AMD have also built that same hardware into their Hawaii chips, and will announce that they have DX 12 hardware already out there.
1. Mantle is getting fast tracked into DX as a thin API. No extra hardware features, but better tools and closer-to-the metal API. Maybe MS and AMD have worked on it together a lot longer than we know about. MS gets more performance and better tools on XB and PC, AMD does all the work and gets a competitive advantage over Nvidia. MS don't care about Nvidia as they have no relevance to the console market. It isn't the first time MS have unilaterally changed DX (the killing of the hardware sound stack).
2. DX 12 is a superset of DX 11. The XBone APU contains secret sauce for DX 12 that is about to be revealed along with a new, thinner API. Having designed and built the XBone APU, AMD have also built that same hardware into their Hawaii chips, and will announce that they have DX 12 hardware already out there.
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I really like the sound of your speculations.
IMO what your saying has merit, AMD know how to get the most out of their own architecture, I think MS tried with their own API differing from DX only to find its not good enough to compete with the PS4's stronger hardware.
I think AMD went to MS and proposed Mantle or perhaps a more advanced version of Mantle to MS provided they also make it available on the PC, AKA DX12.
AMD may have proposed this much earlier in the XB1 development stage, its quite possible that Mantle was originally developed with the XB1 / PS4 in mind and both refused given that they are in competition with the PC.
AMD's reaction was to release it as an API that competes with DX, MS realised they don't have an API which allows them to compete with the PS4, on top of that find their Desktop API monopoly under threat and felt pressured to reconsider AMD's offer.
Quite a clever Coup if thats about how it panned out. who holds all the cards now, eh?
IMO what your saying has merit, AMD know how to get the most out of their own architecture, I think MS tried with their own API differing from DX only to find its not good enough to compete with the PS4's stronger hardware.
I think AMD went to MS and proposed Mantle or perhaps a more advanced version of Mantle to MS provided they also make it available on the PC, AKA DX12.
AMD may have proposed this much earlier in the XB1 development stage, its quite possible that Mantle was originally developed with the XB1 / PS4 in mind and both refused given that they are in competition with the PC.
AMD's reaction was to release it as an API that competes with DX, MS realised they don't have an API which allows them to compete with the PS4, on top of that find their Desktop API monopoly under threat and felt pressured to reconsider AMD's offer.
Quite a clever Coup if thats about how it panned out. who holds all the cards now, eh?
Just think of the feather ruffling this would cause lol. Awesome if true though.
Yeah, but you know it might just be AMD crowing about TrueAudio being fed into DX 12. AMD are the masters at hyping things up and then not delivering what was expected. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory seems to be a bit of a speciality with them.
Caporegime
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Mantle in DX means it has to work in Nvidia doesn't it? Or they just won't bother.
From what I understand with DirectX development, don't they basically all get together to put into it what they can etc? So they all MS/AMD/Nvidia etc have a say?
From what I understand with DirectX development, don't they basically all get together to put into it what they can etc? So they all MS/AMD/Nvidia etc have a say?
Don't be posting common sense. Mantle will be the integral workings of DX and nVidia will only have DX11.andabit to use for future...
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IMO what your saying has merit, AMD know how to get the most out of their own architecture, I think MS tried with their own API differing from DX only to find its not good enough to compete with the PS4's stronger hardware.
I think AMD went to MS and proposed Mantle or perhaps a more advanced version of Mantle to MS provided they also make it available on the PC, AKA DX12.
AMD may have proposed this much earlier in the XB1 development stage, its quite possible that Mantle was originally developed with the XB1 / PS4 in mind and both refused given that they are in competition with the PC.
AMD's reaction was to release it as an API that competes with DX, MS realised they don't have an API which allows them to compete with the PS4, on top of that find their Desktop API monopoly under threat and felt pressured to reconsider AMD's offer.
Quite a clever Coup if thats about how it panned out. who holds all the cards now, eh?
Xbones hardware is designed around giving a superset for DX11.2 so I very much doubt it would have even been pitched to Microsoft.
As with all Direct X API's both AMD and Nvidia, and Intel now that they have DX capable GPU's need to have Hardware compatibility parity, MS wont deny Nvidia / Intel anything, AMD wouldn't want that anyway.
But i would think they need to look at their architectures, even follow AMD's lead as much as that may begrudge them.
Soldato
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I believe they do get together but i think it's more like here's the spec so then Amd and Nvidia build cards to support it.
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Follow AMDs lead on what exactly? GCN?
Oh my lord - it's bad enough it's derailed into a Mantle thread. Nevermind the fact Kepler is super old and still dominates leader boards the world round. Begrudgingly wouldn't come close lol.
Oh my lord - it's bad enough it's derailed into a Mantle thread. Nevermind the fact Kepler is super old and still dominates leader boards the world round. Begrudgingly wouldn't come close lol.
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Caporegime
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Mantle can work on other gpu's.
That's been known for ages, but doesn't really answer the question.
It's not a case of a "Tick for Nvidia support".
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Lets not dumb this down to whose better "AMD vs Nvidia" its so depressing that a thread seemingly hasto be dragged so low into the gutter.
If Intel / Nvidia are not currently compatible with DX12 they may have to change their architecture, Normally this is done during DX development but on this occasion DX12 looks to be based on an existing architecture.
Its retrospective. Thats all i'm saying.
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Ultimately, MS decides what goes in, and it's up to others to support it. Nvidia won't support Mantle because it's AMD, but if AMD get it put into DX, then it becomes a MS standard, and it's up to Nvidia to support it or not. Obviously, one of the big vendors not supporting it may impact whether developers use it or not.
There have been occasions where one vendor or the other simply doesn't have the features in the hardware, and doesn't support the feature, or only supports it in software (some sort of driver emulation) so they can claim the checkbox. This has tended to severely stunt the use of that feature by developers.
It's worth noting that Mantle does have the disadvantage of not being supported by Nvidia, but it does have the advantage of being low hanging fruit that's relevant to PCs, XBOne and PS4 because of similarities. It's always very attractive to developers if you give them something that gives good results with little work.
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