DirectX and OpenGL will start offering low-level access in order to reduce draw overhead

gpuerrilla · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:38

Green is green. Spoon is stir, we all get that. Please let's move on!

CAT-THE-FIFTH · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:39

Th0nt said:
Green is green. Spoon is stir, we all get that. Please let's move on!

Might as well.

LtMatt · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:42

Yeah time to move on. Lets not give the dons any easy work.

Rusty0611 · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:43

Bout blooming time.

p.s. I'm still miles better than Matt at BF4

/OUT

gpuerrilla · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:46

Haha, that's better - injecting some humour into the thread!

(I know you are better than him shhhhh)

Ed - quick sidenote: Matt have you been taking BF4 too seriously as I heard in the norfolk news a chopper was taken down...

LtMatt · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:47

** Removed **

Th0nt said:
Haha, that's better - injecting some humour into the thread!

(I know you are better than him shhhhh)

Ed - quick sidenote: Matt have you been taking BF4 too seriously as I heard in the norfolk news a chopper was taken down...

Yes he came into my no fly zone (thats what she said) so i got my stinger out and took him down with two rockets. Unfortunately our AA was camped two miles away back in base.

Rusty0611 · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:50

CAT-THE-FIFTH · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:52

Bah,play on PS2 without spending any money.

That separates the Men from the other men.

Rusty0611 · 14 Mar 2014 at 12:14

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
Bah,play on PS2 without spending any money.

That separates the Men from the other men.

I couldn't get into PS2. Shame because on paper it's right up my street.

CAT-THE-FIFTH · 14 Mar 2014 at 12:24

Rusty0611 said:
I couldn't get into PS2. Shame because on paper it's right up my street.

It has a steep learning curve,and it involved getting my arse handed to me repeatedly. However,as time progressed,I got better upgrades which helped.

PS2 has some epic battles though.

humbug · 14 Mar 2014 at 12:38

With the nature of the title of this thread its a shame the DX12 thread was merged with it. it was a far more sensible discussion than whats going on in here.

This thread is also full of arguments. its impossible to have a meaningful debate in this thread, basically the mods have killed the debate by moving it into a thread as vile as this one

I don't think its favouritism, just really inconsistent and short sighted moderating. A mistake.

Apologies if this comes across in anyway wrong, no insult intended.

Steampunk · 14 Mar 2014 at 13:27

So, I was thinking about CPU/GPU/APU in the PC space, and how the people who make the chips write the low-level drivers and APIs, not the OS manufacturer. How does it work on the consoles? Does MS and Sony write the drivers/APIs or is it still AMD as the hardware manufacturer?

Regardless of MS or Sony supplying a specification, I can't see how anyone else but the people who designed and built the hardware are best placed to write the drivers and the API.

So given that AMD wrote the low-level drivers and thin, close-to-the-metal APIs for the consoles, that explains how Mantle was a spin-off of this, what with the hardware being so similar to their PC parts. Makes it seem an easy step for a Mantle-a-like to go into DX12, no?

Silent_Scone · 14 Mar 2014 at 13:31

As it's dedicated hardware I'd imagine most of what they need is built into their own API, but they will be in communication with AMD on a regular-ish basis almost definitely. Initially they'd have datasheets etc and many a sit down with AMD with how to tackle GNC. Then MS write and distribute the API

humbug · 14 Mar 2014 at 13:50

Steampunk said:
So, I was thinking about CPU/GPU/APU in the PC space, and how the people who make the chips write the low-level drivers and APIs, not the OS manufacturer. How does it work on the consoles? Does MS and Sony write the drivers/APIs or is it still AMD as the hardware manufacturer?

Regardless of MS or Sony supplying a specification, I can't see how anyone else but the people who designed and built the hardware are best placed to write the drivers and the API.

So given that AMD wrote the low-level drivers and thin, close-to-the-metal APIs for the consoles, that explains how Mantle was a spin-off of this, what with the hardware being so similar to their PC parts. Makes it seem an easy step for a Mantle-a-like to go into DX12, no?

What Frosty said, one other thing that matters is that they are using AMD's GCN architecture, the same architecture that's in today retail GPU's.

Any API designed for those Consoles is easily applicable to Desktop, the only thing is they arent going to make those API's Open Source or release them in anyway, or at least not Sony.

The XB1 is currently based on DX11.2, DX11.2 was already developed in partnership with AMD and is available in Windows 8.1.

However, Microsoft are dumping DX11.2, at least on the XB1 and going in partnership again with AMD to develop DX12, a 'Mantle like' low level access API, i would imagine they would want to do this fairly quickly and cheaply, instead of the usual years of development it seems to me they will simply use what already exists, Mantle.

Silent_Scone · 14 Mar 2014 at 13:57

At least that's what they've made it look like is happening

Boomstick777 · 14 Mar 2014 at 14:01

Wander if Microsoft could just give AMD some finance to license Mantle tech into their own DX API. Less development time for MS and boost for AMD finances.. Regardless of how it's happening if it brings improvements and happens sooner rather than later than it's good for us.

Steampunk · 14 Mar 2014 at 14:10

humbug said:
What Frosty said, one other thing that matters is that they are using AMD's GCN architecture, the same architecture that's in today retail GPU's.

Any API designed for those Consoles is easily applicable to Desktop, the only thing is they arent going to make those API's Open Source or release them in anyway, or at least not Sony.

That's why they are "different" products, and it depends on who owns the code. By the very nature of having to work on similar hardware, the APIs and drivers will be similar solutions. Besides, there are plenty of available APIs that are not open source. DirectX is one. Even Sony has to provide a closed SDK for developers to write games, and we know that the code is transferable to a greater or lesser degree. AMD even stated that TrueAudio code works with no changes between PS4 and Hawaii.

There's little doubt that Mantle being folded into DX12 will allow for anyone to use it under the same restrictions as people use DX today. Openly available is not the same as open sourced.

humbug said:
However, Microsoft are dumping DX11.2, at least on the XB1 and going in partnership again with AMD to develop DX12, a 'Mantle like' low level access API, i would imagine they would want to do this fairly quickly and cheaply, instead of the usual years of development it seems to me they will simply use what already exists, Mantle.

Microsoft has never been afraid of buying up stuff if they wanted it. If anything, they would have worked so closely with AMD on XBone, they already must know this stuff inside out.

humbug · 14 Mar 2014 at 14:10

Boomstick777 said:
Wander if Microsoft could just give AMD some finance to license Mantle tech into their own DX API. Less development time for MS and boost for AMD finances.. Regardless of how it's happening if it brings improvements and happens sooner rather than later than it's good for us.

AMD want Mantle to be mainstream, by mainstream i mean widely used and fully compatible with Nvidia and Intel.

The thing is right now the PS4 is significantly more powerful than the XB1, people know this and its getting slaughtered in the sales by it.

Mircosoft need to respond fast, and cheaply, AMD hold the key to that, which puts them in a dictatorial position, what AMD can say to Miscrosoft is "Mantle in DX12 in its entirety on the Desktop or your on your own"

Which isn't actually a bad thing for MS to go along with, that would create 100% parity with the XB1 and the Desktop, Developers will love that and for Microsoft it puts one over on the PS4 as it would be the odd one out in development terms. Win Win Win.

Silent_Scone · 14 Mar 2014 at 14:15

Boomstick777 said:
Wander if Microsoft could just give AMD some finance to license Mantle tech into their own DX API. Less development time for MS and boost for AMD finances.. Regardless of how it's happening if it brings improvements and happens sooner rather than later than it's good for us.

It's any ones guess just what exactly has happened financially between September and now to be fair. GDC will give us a better insight, it might just be Johan and a bunch of others discussing command buffers and hypothesising about what AMD has already done for DX and XB1 lol.

Steampunk · 14 Mar 2014 at 14:19

humbug said:
AMD want Mantle to be mainstream, by mainstream i mean widely used and fully compatible with Nvidia and Intel.

Nvidia will never support Mantle unless it is part of DirectX, and even then, they have the option of ignoring it. So the first step for AMD is to get Microsoft to fold Mantle into DirectX. Then Nvidia has to follow, because they don't want to have non-DirectX 12 compliant cards.

Nvidia will also not want to lose out in the performance stakes, because Mantle games are getting a big boost. If AMD users are getting more performance out of a thin DX12, and Nvidia cards are still struck with a slow, fat, bloaty DX11 that strangles their performance... Jen-Hsun will not be happy.