DLSS 5 preview

[Tinek]

Its funding, Nvidia spend more on R&D than AMD earn in net revenue.

Yep and that's why AMD will never catch up - not as long as Nvidia introduces new things all the time. They just can't make up for the lost time. But they are chasing as least.

Its a chicken and egg thing, Nvidia were much smarter than AMD in competitiveness at the beginning, Nvidia earned their dominant market position and now they can afford to spend vast amounts of capital developing things that AMD either cannot at all or are much slower getting there.

I really don't think it cost them that much to introduce a very known tech of AI filter to gaming.

RNDA 5 is specifically designed with Neural Rendering, this is what DLSS 5 is, whose to say that Nvidia came up with this? Because that is not how it usually works, usually its some lab somewhere researching the technology that is then adopted by someone who can put that research to use.

Neither of them came up with it, it's not a new tech just now hardware got fast enough to even think about it in games, plus the tech evolved (outside those 2 companies) to allow it.

It is obvious if you look how AMD's GPU code base is evolving that FSR 5 is coming with RDNA 5 and it is something that is capable of the same thing as DLSS 5

And that's just a by-product of investing into AI accelerators for their real revenue. For both companies really.

It will be later, probably at least a year later than DLSS 5, as always "AMD are just copying Nvidia" ARE THEY??????

Not always but with ai? Yeah, they are. So are mobile vendors.

Or is it rather just that Nvidia are able to outspend AMD and get the technology developed that much quicker?

Same outcome.

BTW DLSS 5 Runs on AMD GPU's, as if its already familiar with the code base.

Because it doesn't need any fancy new hardware, just AI accelerators (matrix multiplication logic) that already exist on both sides, just in different numbers.

 

[TNA]

DLSS 5 plus Ray/path tracing is where it really shines.

Pun intended?

 

[opethdisciple]

There are quite a bunch of things in DX spec that you will simply not see in games aside few older titles. Not everything takes and vendors do not decide what does - publishers do. But in this case, considering it will save them a ton of money on development by offloading the problem to gamer's machines, it might as well be a push for. I still don't see it taking off in coming years - average gamer simply has no hardware to do that, nor really care about realism in games much at all. Average gamer is happy to play simple games on the phone or consoles and couldn't care less about fancy PC - only nerds like we are do (for different reasons, I don't care about games, I care about tech used underneath and so far I'm not very impressed). New GPUs that can handle it better will be priced way too high for most gamers (and apparently you won't see them for 2+ more years) - that's a given judging by how things are going. A lot of wishful thinking in this topic joined with amnesia, IMHO.

No one said they can't make chips faster. All I said is that essentially the rapid progress predicted by Moores Law has slowed down considerably so now they are moving to a hybrid software (AI)/hardware synergy to get the performance advancements that Moore essentially predicted.

And when I say they I actually mean the industry not just Nvidia as all vendors have a form of AI upscaling at the minimum.

Look at how crippling PT is in the 007 game. With out AI how will we see acceptable FPS?

Are next gen GPU's really going to be able to run PT at native resolution?

I doubt it.

 

[Ayahuasca]

You know there is an edit button instead of spamming responses to the same post in separate posts?

 

[Tinek]

No one said they can't make chips faster.

Right, aside Nvidia CEO repeating it in every single interview for a while? really not hard to find his direct quotes online, even LLM can do it for you.

All I said is that essentially the rapid progress predicted by Moores Law has slowed down considerably so now they are moving to a hybrid software (AI)/hardware synergy to get the performance advancements that Moore essentially predicted.

Right, and the logic in that is "we can't make traditional rendering faster so let's replace it with much slower RT! Actually no, even slower PT!" and that quickly was replaced with "actually, AI is the future, we can replace with that Neural Rendering! Ps. It's even slower, not faster.". I fail to see actual logic in it, all I see is total marketing BS spouted out by the vendor who makes all of its money (as proper gaming pc hardware is below 1% of their revenue now) on selling AI. Can they make it work and look "pretty" - sure. For datacenters and cloud gaming. Oh, you want it at home? Have an AI filter insetead (which is not even close to what they advertised initially under the umbrella of "neutral rendering" btw). I don't buy their marketing, I can see where this is going.

And when I say they I actually mean the industry not just Nvidia as all vendors have a form of AI upscaling at the minimum.

That has nothing to do with dlss5 or neutral rendering in general, completely different and unrelated thing.

Look at how crippling PT is in the 007 game. With out AI how will we see acceptable FPS?

You are actually making my point for me - "neutral rendering" will not make it faster, it will make it slower.

Are next gen GPU's really going to be able to run PT at native resolution?

I doubt it.

Neither they will be able to run "neutral rendering" at native resolution 60+ FPS in a price range gamers at large can afford.

 

[Tinek]

Reading with understanding is a dying skill too.

 

[opethdisciple]

Right, aside Nvidia CEO repeating it in every single interview for a while? really not hard to find his direct quotes online, even LLM can do it for you.

Right, and the logic in that is "we can't make traditional rendering faster so let's replace it with much slower RT! Actually no, even slower PT!" and that quickly was replaced with "actually, AI is the future, we can replace with that Neural Rendering! Ps. It's even slower, not faster.". I fail to see actual logic in it, all I see is total marketing BS spouted out by the vendor who makes all of its money (as proper gaming pc hardware is below 1% of their revenue now) on selling AI. Can they make it work and look "pretty" - sure. For datacenters and cloud gaming. Oh, you want it at home? Have an AI filter insetead (which is not even close to what they advertised initially under the umbrella of "neutral rendering" btw). I don't buy their marketing, I can see where this is going.

That has nothing to do with dlss5 or neutral rendering in general, completely different and unrelated thing.

You are actually making my point for me - "neutral rendering" will not make it faster, it will make it slower.

Neither they will be able to run "neutral rendering" at native resolution 60+ FPS in a price range gamers at large can afford.

But any form of improvement in IQ has always come with a performance penalty.

In the past we had tessellation. I'm sure that was expensive to run on current gen hardware back in the day.

Then RT etc...

Now we have neural rendering.

It's why we need faster cards and we use AI to do some of the heavy lifting.

 

[scubes]

Tried the dlss5 last nite again i must had the wrong driver installed played abit of skyrim again mine doesnt look as good as the youtube videos(maybe havemt got enough mods installed before the driver change 5090 power was 560 watts with new driver its 460 watts ..dono if i like it or not to be honest time will tell ...

 

[GIBURROWS]

Tried the dlss5 last nite again i must had the wrong driver installed played abit of skyrim again mine doesnt look as good as the youtube videos(maybe havemt got enough mods installed before the driver change 5090 power was 560 watts with new driver its 460 watts ..dono if i like it or not to be honest time will tell ...

Skyrim is great I'm sure you'll like it if you keep on with it..........

 

[heatonpkmassive]

Tried the dlss5 last nite again i must had the wrong driver installed played abit of skyrim again mine doesnt look as good as the youtube videos(maybe havemt got enough mods installed before the driver change 5090 power was 560 watts with new driver its 460 watts ..dono if i like it or not to be honest time will tell ...

Is that new driver disabling your mods?

 

[wunkley]

People - you need to use the Shortfuse versions from the RenoDX discord. They are superior in numerous ways, and I have found the Optiscaler ones (which most people are using in the easy one click install rubbish) do not provide as pronounced an effect in many games.

 

[Dravic]

Pun intended?

Hell yeah!

 

[Dravic]

People - you need to use the Shortfuse versions from the RenoDX discord. They are superior in numerous ways, and I have found the Optiscaler ones (which most people are using in the easy one click install rubbish) do not provide as pronounced an effect in many games.

I haven't found a decent 1 click or optiscaler version either so as a 40 series user I use:

https://discord.com/channels/1408098019194310818/1545049227321810974/1545049767128858755 Which is the modded dll for getting NR working on 40 series.
https://github.com/mavismmg/MFGAdaUnlock-RenoDx Which gives me MFG.
https://github.com/matiasLombo/neural-upstream/releases/tag/v0.3.0 Which does the Neural Rendering pass before upscaling meaning you get a massive performance boost.

Install reshade, drop these 3 files into your game directory (folder with the game .exe) and you're good to go.

 

[Kelt]

I haven't found a decent 1 click or optiscaler version either so as a 40 series user I use:

https://discord.com/channels/1408098019194310818/1545049227321810974/1545049767128858755 Which is the modded dll for getting NR working on 40 series.
https://github.com/mavismmg/MFGAdaUnlock-RenoDx Which gives me MFG.
https://github.com/matiasLombo/neural-upstream/releases/tag/v0.3.0 Which does the Neural Rendering pass before upscaling meaning you get a massive performance boost.

Install reshade, drop these 3 files into your game directory (folder with the game .exe) and you're good to go.

Have you a link which isn't discord locked?

 

[Dravic]

Have you a link which isn't discord locked?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1545049227321810974/1545049766537330688/nvngx_dlssnr.dll?ex=6aad3039&is=6aabdeb9&hm=b788f30639d6e44a1e5585be0539fb26fe6371f55f8df40a75e03c6e70d89842&

Direct DL link without opening Discord.

 

[Tinek]

But any form of improvement in IQ has always come with a performance penalty.

This isn't improvement in IQ, this is an AI filter - fine to use with photo mode, not in actual gaming in many cases (as FPS hit is ridiculous). Most of all, it's a postprocessing, not rendering. A few studios shown what a real progress in graphics rendering technology is but that's hard, that's expensive, that's not cost cutting in dying (I hope you didn't miss all those studios closing all the time and hundreds of Devs fired) AAA industry. A filter that does the job for them, so they can do even less and charge you even more - that's what DLSS5 is IMHO. Not a progress but a regression.

Where are the munch more detailed neural compressed textures for example? The lighting fixes that were to replace very costly RT with neutral much faster versions (few prototypes were shown by unrelated to Nvidia developers) - the latter actually vendor agnostic and speeding things up instead of slowing them down. Not in any game I know of. Do you think all the actual neutral improvemens Nvidia shown in the past, each adding few ms to the render time, can work at the same time along with dlss5 and RT/PT? I don't know of any gaming GPU that can do that currently. It seems to me they ditched that idea and just replaced it with a filter. I really hope the actual neutral rendering done properly by 3rd party Devs will come sooner than later.

What Nvidia delivered is the most lazy approach possible, and to that people have been using AI filters like that for many months before DLSS 5 was presented - just nobody cared at that point aside small group of people, as it didn't come from Nvidia. And with the performance hit shown in NBA game it's unusable for most gamers (mods do it better but that's not official way that most people will know about and use).

In the past we had tessellation. I'm sure that was expensive to run on current gen hardware back in the day.

Need I remind you who shown it first and how long ago? Hint: not Nvidia, it took many many years for it to take, the performance hit was way too big initially. And now it's in games and hardly anyone even notice or remember about it.

Then RT etc...

Still a total niche with only a small handful of games and big performance hit - most people (as per statistics I've seen the times) do not care one bit she to not enable it untill it runs good on their GPUs. Though, at least with it DLSS upscaling helps, with the post-processing filter currently it doesn't (because the 10ms+ cost is static and doesn't depend on input resolution but only on the output one).

Now we have neural rendering.

We don't. This filter isn't neutral rendering, it's a postprocessing filter currently.

It's why we need faster cards and we use AI to do some of the heavy lifting.

You can get currently either faster card in normal games or faster AI processing, not both - different logic on the card, competing for space. And faster processing means competition to enterprise cards - it doesn't sound very smart for Nvidia to give that to gamers really, not in any sensible pricing.

 

[Dravic]

Nvidia shown in the past, each adding few ms to the render time, can work at the same time along with dlss5 and RT/PT? I don't know of any gaming GPU that can do that currently.

Well you say that, but with the mods I posted above I can play CP2077 with PT, neural (not neutral) rendering, in 4k, at 90 FPS, with a 4070. It isn't perfect but it's perfectly playable. And there's plenty of much more powerful cards than mine.

Btw, do you realise NEURAL rendering is part of the DX specs so it's probably here to stay?

 

[imtoooldforthis]

Turns out you can get pretty good performance if you use 1 pass of NR but use Optiscaler to 'apply before super resolution'. Doesn't look quite as good but you only lose about 5ps. These screens are all with that method applied.

 

[megalomanic]

I've been trying the beta/EA version of the upcoming Shortfuse mod update which has the apply before SR option and it works really well, like a 25-30% boost in performance and still looks the same to me. I can now use it in Onimusha/RE9/Resonance and stay comfortably above 60fps without any frame gen on my 5070 at 1440p.

I'm surprised you only lose 5fps @imtoooldforthis?, I thought it was always like an overall 40-60% drop in fps with it on and wouldn't expect apply before SR to have that big of an impact.

 

[Neil79]

DLSS Unlocked 1.4.2

• Unlock DLSS 3 Frame Generation (DLSS-G), Multi-Frame Generation (MFG: 2X, 3X, 4X), and Neural Rendering (DLSS-NR) across NVIDIA GeForce RTX 20xx / 30xx / 40xx GPUs in DirectX 12 games. Fully compatible with Windows and Linux (Proton) out of the box.

- Added support for NR candidate path resolution
- Added NR path hierarchy
- Replaced optimized kernel checkbox with 4-tier selection
- Now defaults to 3 generated frames (FG=4x) out of the box
- Added support for SM75/SM86 mod v0.3.2

https://www.nexusmods.com/site/mods/2264?tab=description