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DLSS 5 preview

bingham67 said:
Seems DLSS5 has come a few generations to early, kind of spoiled it in a way.
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No choice really, this specific tech had to launch now before it became increasingly unnecessary.

The real innovation will be integrating AI in game engines as a part of the rendering pipeline, rather than a process slapped on the end of it.
Still a lot to look forward to, assuming people can afford it.
 
eddyr said:
No choice really, this specific tech had to launch now before it became increasingly unnecessary.

The real innovation will be integrating AI in game engines as a part of the rendering pipeline, rather than a process slapped on the end of it.
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Well... Maybe. Roblox already tried it, running generative AI models on their engine on their very fast backend (not on end-user machines) and posted results of their experiments. It's... not really working that well, when you try to replace more things with AI, it hallucinates horribly, nothing is consistent (especially in movement) even with motion vectors etc. The outcome was - it has SOME use but it simply can't replace render pipeline, it's a wrong tool for the job.
eddyr said:
Still a lot to look forward to, assuming people can afford it.
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As Roblox shown - this requires cloud computing to render things with proper performance, not going to happen on end-user machines, apparently. Which, for NVIDIA, isn't bad news at all actually, since they offer cloud gaming services. :)
 
Tinek said:
Yes, but that's not what huge majority will see - they don't "hack" things, they press a button in menu. And so far, for such people, DLSS5 is in one game, supported only on 5k series GPU, and the game frankly has ugly textures etc. with and without that tech. So, not a good use case and won't conquer anything.

Modders can do wonders with existing tech. But majority of PC gamers will never see that - they either get mainstream stuff or it might as well not exist.

I am commenting about the official, real use of those things, not modding. I never stand against modding or personal preferences - it seems this gets easily conflated by many people.


Photo mode =/= gaming. No contradiction.

Very subjective, good for you. I don't see it as an improvement in GAMING, I see it as a detraction. You know what's improvement in comparison? For example, what AMD just shown recently, with tetrahedral BVH "cheat" to speed up RT rendering from 300ms for very poly-heavy scenes (like with Nanite) to 3.3ms per frame. THAT is an improvement, as 3.3ms with half a trillion of polygons on the screen is an amazing achievement on current hardware, leaving plenty of ms to use for other graphical improvements. And then you get AI filter, 10ms+ eating of frametime with up-close improvements of faces and then a lot of issues in movement and with camera being further away (as HUB shown in details), along with not really improving textures and other things much, but hallucinating lighting (which people consider somehow more realistic, even though it's just screen-space hallucination). The main thing I disliked RT for in games is that it's just slow one existing hardware and often just not worth it. However, with methods and improvements like AMD's mentioned one, it could become very viable and actually provide proper lighting, shadows, work well with high-poly scenes, faces, textures etc. An actual proper rendering, not some AI filter rubbish.

It's not about the effect; it's about the performance hit. If it drops to 3ms per frame, all power to them. With current official state, it's unusable IMHO.
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Brand new tech is not widespread is hardly a shocker, all new tech has to start somewhere. Ray tracing, DLSS, hardware T&L all started with very little support, then it grew. This is the way things work and always have. It'll officially get added to more games and then more people will use it.

Brand new tech is often imperfect, look at the state of DLSS 1, blurry mess like Vaseline on your screen now it's infinitely better. Frame gen has vastly improved since its first iteration. Nvidia will iterate DLSS5 and it'll improve.

I remember so many people saying the very same things about Raytracing when it first appeared, saying good baked lighting was great even though it wasn't accurate like raytracing, things can be imperfect but still look good. I'm running around in games thinking wow this looks amazing not looking around trying to decide if shading/shadows/lighting are perfectly accurate.

You seem to be someone who expects graphical improvements to come at no performance cost, that's just not how things work, pretty much every graphical improvement ever has come with a hit to your FPS, I'm not sure why this seems such an issue for you. Newer gen cards will release, will run it better and eventually it'll be just another choice in your options that you can decide to use or not.

If in just a few weeks modders can make it far more performant and also look better do you not think the trillion dollar company that produces it won't improve upon it?

Edit:

You also criticise DLSS5 for being in only one single game, yet you then go on to praise an unreleased tech that's in precisely zero games.

You are criticising DLSS5 for not being perfectly accurate all the time and say raytracing is not worth it so you must use raster/baked lighting which is the least accurate form of game lighting these days, at least be consistent.
 
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Tinek said:
Well... Maybe. Roblox already tried it, running generative AI models on their engine on their very fast backend (not on end-user machines) and posted results of their experiments. It's... not really working that well, when you try to replace more things with AI, it hallucinates horribly, nothing is consistent (especially in movement) even with motion vectors etc. The outcome was - it has SOME use but it simply can't replace render pipeline, it's a wrong tool for the job.
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Definitely don't mean what Roblox are doing.

When I say integrated into the pipeline, I'm talking about technologies like ray reconstruction (which we already have), or self training radiance caching, or neural materials and other techniques still in r&d.
I've read about neural GI fields, where the entire game world lighting is mapped, stored and condensed into a compact neural model, but as it can't handle changing geometry, research is ongoing on how to handle dynamic environments.

But much of it will require new hardware to support or run efficiently, which means you'll need a new even more expensive GPU to enjoy it.
Not to mention these days new architectures take 24-36 months to iterate, compared to the regular 12 months cadence 20 years ago when hardware refreshed rapidly to support new features.

As Roblox shown - this requires cloud computing to render things with proper performance, not going to happen on end-user machines, apparently. Which, for NVIDIA, isn't bad news at all actually, since they offer cloud gaming services. :)
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Gaming as a service looming over us, its going to be a constant push of gaming it into data centre. We will be a civilization of data centres.
 
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What makes me chuckle a bit is where people are wowed by what it is doing to Unreal Engine games - but a lot of what they are being wowed by is actually DLSS 5 restoring what is being lost because of UE's **** lighting - where DLSS 5 is bringing back the pop and detail in highlights and mid-range dynamic range which is being lost with the stock lighting :(

I'm still a bit perplexed as to what is going on with the lighting in UE - it is like somewhere deep down someone has screwed up a conversion between full range RGB and limited range and everything else has been built on top of that without anyone noticing.
 
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ci_newman said:
@Tinek the multi-quote feature exists for a reason. Stop replying to every post as a single post, it clutters the thread and it's annoying.
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Not a function I used before but hey, I live and learn and will keep that on mind. Though, it happens naturally when one checks on discussion once every few days and responds in bulk (like I do).
 
Dravic said:
You also criticise DLSS5 for being in only one single game, yet you then go on to praise an unreleased tech that's in precisely zero games.
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One tech pushes things forth with performance increase, the other ones is an AI filter, which slows things down more than it has any right to (to be really usable) and is not far from what we've all seen and experienced for years now in social media etc. I know which tech I put my hopes on actually being widely used with time.
Dravic said:
You are criticising DLSS5 for not being perfectly accurate all the time and say raytracing is not worth it so you must use raster/baked lighting which is the least accurate form of game lighting these days, at least be consistent.
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DLSS5 by the very nature of how it works is the least accurate tech out of them all. It's just the most uncanny which some people seem to take as realism (as in, accuracy). I'm not one of those people, I understand how it works. Hint: it doesn't calculate any light propagation, it simply "guesses" what looks kind of ok in screen space and then makes things up and to that not very consistently when camera distance changes.
Rroff said:
What makes me chuckle a bit is where people are wowed by what it is doing to Unreal Engine games - but a lot of what they are being wowed by is actually DLSS 5 restoring what is being lost because of UE's **** lighting - where DLSS 5 is bringing back the pop and detail in highlights and mid-range dynamic range which is being lost with the stock lighting :(

I'm still a bit perplexed as to what is going on with the lighting in UE - it is like somewhere deep down someone has screwed up a conversion between full range RGB and limited range and everything else has been built on top of that without anyone noticing.
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It's very likely a byproduct of that engine being designed for movie industry first and gaming later, it feels - in the former they run whole colour grading, lighting pass etc. before it goes to the screen. But in gaming Devs just press a button and release, it feels - nobody really pays much attention to how it actually looks like anymore "we enabled lumen, it should just work!". But mastering needs to be done in every production - be it film, music or game, yet we get this raw unfinished look most of the time from UE5. That's also why HDR is so so bad in many of these games to they point I often prefer to just go to rtx HDR or even Windows auto HDR.

That said, it's not just lighting in that engine - multiple layers of horribly blurry taa smear a lot of details from textures and objects too, which doesn't help at all, even when DLSS is used.
 
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Tinek said:
One tech pushes things forth with performance increase, the other ones is an AI filter, which slows things down more than it has any right to (to be really usable) and is not far from what we've all seen and experienced for years now in social media etc. I know which tech I put my hopes on actually being widely used with time.
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Ok, but how does that relate to you criticising a tech for being only available in one game, whilst praising another tech that isn't in any game? Again, it seems to me all you want is performance increases, graphical fidelity seems unimportant to you so it's no wonder you don't like cutting edge graphical improvements
 
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Tinek said:
DLSS5 by the very nature of how it works is the least accurate tech out of them all. It's just the most uncanny which some people seem to take as realism (as in, accuracy). I'm not one of those people, I understand how it works. Hint: it doesn't calculate any light propagation, it simply "guesses" what looks kind of ok in screen space and then makes things up and to that not very consistently when camera distance
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DLSS5 is not perfectly accurate and neither is raster/baked lighting, raster is often made deliberately inaccurate for effect, why do you not like one but not the other?
 
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Dravic said:
DLSS5 is not perfectly accurate
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It's not accurate at all, it can't be by design and I explained why already. To have it even follow scene lighting at all, you need to feed it very precise data calculated with RT/PT preferably, as per Nvidia own words.
Dravic said:
and neither is raster/baked lighting, raster is often made deliberately inaccurate for effect, why do you not like one but not the other?
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Apples Vs oranges. I don't think me explaining here to you how things work will land, so I suggest you go and read how each of those technologies work exactly and how accurate they can be. I'll add one thing here - if you expect games to be reality you might as well just go out end enjoy the real world? Because you know, games are for... gaming, as in entertainment, artistic expression etc.
Dravic said:
Ok, but how does that relate to you criticising a tech for being only available in one game, whilst praising another tech that isn't in any game?
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I don't know what to tell you to not repeat myself. Sometimes you need to actually read what people say, few times perhaps. :)
Dravic said:
Again, it seems to me all you want is performance increases, graphical fidelity seems unimportant
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Then you didn't understand what I wrote or try to strawman me. The above still apply.
 
In it's currently form, it's difficult to see how DLSS5 NR will fit in when it comes to new releases that have really good GI and AO etc already, but it has absolutely improved my experience in some games. Here's how I've found it in the handful of games I've tried and spent some time in:

  • Shadow of the Tomb Raider - Really good in this, emulates some much needed AO/SSS to characters and lighting on objects in the world that otherwise have very little. I found the image quite stable too with the right DLSS preset.
  • Resonance: A Plague Tale Legacy - This game's lighting looks great already, not much advantage here imo unless you want that fake photo-real look. It does actually help the character lighting a bit though, in some places more than others, but needs plenty of tweaking to reduce the hero glow and fix the color tone.
  • Resident Evil Requiem - I was never a fan of the RT/PT overall in this game and do actually prefer using NR here. Not much improvement to environments really, but how it makes characters/enemies feel a little less flat does add to the experience for me.
  • GRID Legends - Some nice stable emulation of AO to add depth in this. The game has some decent baked in lighting already, so overall the benefit wasn't really that significant here otherwise.
  • CONTROL (2019) - A surprisingly good looking game for it's age with a decent lighting engine already. At first I didn't like NR in this at all and it conflicted too much with the game's existing solutions, but with some tweaking (to in-game settings too) I got a more stable image. The main advantage was the AO/lighting on the character, and Jesse felt more a part of the environment. Not a whole lot of benefit for me outside of that though, but I do prefer it to using the game's RT options.
  • Onimusha - Way of the Sword - Great in this when configured right, the game has nice overall detail already but quite basic ambient lighting/GI and limited AO, I found NR really helped a lot to remedy this. Really stable IQ too thanks to there not being much to conflict with from the game itself. I found it overall more stable than vanilla because of how NR softens/lightens the existing harsh shadows in place.
  • CONTROL Resonant - No real benefit for me here, game has fantastic lighting and RT/PT already. Maybe if you like that 'photo realism' effect you'd want to use it but I'd not recommend it.
  • 007 First Light - I couldn't get a stable enough image in this at all, but the mods do seem to have issues with this game in general. The game has pretty good lighting already and the recent PT update is pretty good too (performance issues aside). So far I couldn't recommend using NR here but perhaps it is possible to get a good enough image somehow.
  • Dead Space Remake - I didn't spend much time configuring this, the game has kinda unstable DLSS normally and that was exaggerated by NR. With some tweaking maybe that could be improved, in that case I'd probably use it as it did make the game feel less flat and as a result more cinematic/scary.

In no instance did I find I got a good image with the 'out of the box' settings from the mods, it always needed time to dial down, tweak, and test to get a sensible enough result.
 
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Someone managed to bypass the anti-cheat checks and somehow get it working with Hunt Showdown.

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