Do extra terrestrials exist? If so...

Castiel said:
To begin with, they were not starving at that time, the Island was still abundant and had yet to be ecologically unviable, also using an example of one man to dismiss the efforts of hundreds and given that he probably pulled that 8m in a matter of minutes rather than days or weeks doesn't seem to illustrate very much or relate to the techniques discussed.

Ultimately it is eminently easier to believe that the Statues were erected using the techniques that the archaelogists recreated themselves and I have touched upon in this thread, than your proposed alternative that they were moved into place by Extraterrestrials or by some unknown technology or force we have no knowledge of.

Sleep well. :)
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Sleeping on it, i would now say its in the realms of possibility that in the case of Easter island it could have been human intuition.
 
Castiel said:
1. The average statue could have been moved and erected with the combined resources of six to eight families.
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Lets take a nuclear family as an example here. 2 adults, 2 children.

So between 12 - 16 adults and the same in children.

To be definitive you'd need to figure out how much 12 - 16 adults could pull, then take into consideration the age of the adults, there pysical condition, there level of technology and so on.

2. Larger statues required more resources and greater cooperation among larger groups.

3. Pulling a statue involved the largest number of people. The transport task was, therefore, the opportunity for the community to demonstrate its unity, organized effort and dedication to their chiefs and leaders. Pride played an important role in the effort.
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Going on my personal experience here, i couldn't imagine my local community coming together for anything other then there own self interests. But that isn't an indication of the times back then, just the only example i realistically have.

4. Smaller numbers of people with more specialized skills were needed for modifying, adjusting and manipulating the statue during turning and lifting after they had reached their ahu destinations.

5. All of the required skills and materials would have been available to the average Polynesian chief. These skills were learned and relearned over generations, and are typical of other construction efforts, including canoe building.

6. Problems such as we encountered during transport would have been solved by modifying and adapting the transport rig; the position of the statue on the rig allowed nicely for problem solving.

7. Pivoting or turning a statue on its transport rig before placing it in position to move up the ramp could have been accomplished with coordinated levering, as Vince Lee demonstrated.

8. Coastal and inland ahu probably required deployment and placement of people in different ways, but the basic means and methods probably didn't change much.

9. The statue acquired a history as it moved across the landscape, and a series of traditions were accumulated as people worked with the moai to reach their destination.

10. People worked on "island time," over cycles that were both natural and ceremonial.

11. The most well-traveled moai transport roads are on the south coast. The largest number and heaviest statues are on these roads, destined for ahu controlled by the more successful and powerful chiefs. Some statues on other, longer roads were probably there for non-transport reasons, i.e. politics, territory or resources.

12. Finally, our projections of time, resources and people required to move the average statue have been largely verified. The successful chief who, in ancient times, accomplished a task such as we have defined, probably accumulated and distributed the necessary resources for several years before undertaking to transport and erect a moai. Many factors could have intervened or interrupted the process before it was complete. The moai look different to me now. They are still artefacts of stone, but are no longer inert. I have a better understanding of the investment needed to make and move them, and a greater appreciation for the way they acquire meaning in the community. I have gained respect for the magnitude of the Rapa Nui accomplishment. Our moai has been christened "tangata anga" by the people who worked on this project. That means "people working," and he is a vital symbol of passionate, cooperative effort. His final home will be in the island school, where he will serve to teach young people the aesthetics of the past. Many thanks to all who sent questions and comments via this Web site. Look for "tangata anga" when next you visit Rapa Nui.



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/easter/dispatches/
http://www.mysteriousplaces.com/Easter_Island/html/contro2.html
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The rest seem logical, while i'm not doubting its possible what the above says, its just hard to accept when you have been indoctrinated by modern education to believe that pre 1800's people where savages and the vast majority uneducated and it only gets worse when you start looking at ancient tribes.
 
LateX'Dog said:
Lets take a nuclear family as an example here. 2 adults, 2 children.

So between 12 - 16 adults and the same in children.

To be definitive you'd need to figure out how much 12 - 16 adults could pull, then take into consideration the age of the adults, there pysical condition, there level of technology and so on.
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polynesian family structure commonly was polygamic and you are expressing a definition that bears no comparison to what an anthropologist would recognise as a family unit outside of modern western culture....Polynesian families, in fact European families of that time for that matter, would have been significantly larger than the 'nuclear family unit'.......almost certainly composed of three or more generations and with multiple familial streams dues to polgamy.

You are therefore realistically looking at hundreds of people, not a dozen.


LateX'Dog said:
Going on my personal experience here, i couldn't imagine my local community coming together for anything other then there own self interests. But that isn't an indication of the times back then, just the only example i realistically have.
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you have answered your own question, tribal communities even today are not really comparative to Western urban societies.


LateX'Dog said:
The rest seem logical, while i'm not doubting its possible what the above says, its just hard to accept when you have been indoctrinated by modern education to believe that pre 1800's people where savages and the vast majority uneducated and it only gets worse when you start looking at ancient tribes.
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I don't think that a decent modern education should or does give that impression...a little simple research shows that ancient (and the polynesians were not particularly ancient, only aboriginal) cultures had the means to build and maintain vast complex building structures, not to mention had knowledge of advanced scientific and mathematical concepts and techniques.

Basically it just took more manpower, manhours and dedication to a lifes work than it would today......just look at how the Great Cathedrals of Europe were built in the medieval period........with little more in the form of tools than those polynesians.....
 
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LateX'Dog said:
This, but i'm starting to question things.

I've become more and more intrigued by the "Ancient Astronaut" theory.

Some of the things that man has achieved with extremely primitive tools back in ancient times that we can barely do today, just makes me question things.
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It made me question things, so I looked for answers. Real answers, not "I don't know how it was done, therefore aliens/my god(s) of choice did it."

Turns out that with human intelligence, simple tools and a lot of people, all sorts of stuff can get done.

We're used to thinking in terms of modern equipment, a small number of people and a short building time.

It also works with simple tools, a huge number of people and a lot of time. You're not going to move huge stone blocks quickly without modern vehicles, but if you've got a workforce of 40,000 people and 50 years to do the job, you can get those blocks moved.

A simple example of the difference...

You have a block of stone weighing 10 tonnes that you want placing across two uprights, 15 feet high.

Modern method: Rent a suitable crane and hire someone who can use it with sufficient skill. Lift block up, position it. A few people, maybe an hour's work (and most of that would be checking things).

Ancient method. Dig up a lot of earth and pack it as hard as possible around the uprights to form a large solid ramp with a gentle gradient and a large flat section at the top. In short, make a very hard-packed falt-topped hill as high as the uprights. Drag the block up on a low, heavily built sledge. Tip it off. Drag it into position over the uprights. Dig away the hill you made. Hundreds of people, preferably thousands, and several years working in seasons.

Both methods get the job done. You can do it the ancient way with simple stone age tools. It's just a matter of how important it is to your people.

Always bear in mind that ancient humans were the same as us - equally intelligent and probably more capable of improvising solutions because of their lack of modern technology.

Or look at the historical and archaeological record from classical ancient times. Ancient Rome had only hand tools, rope and string. We know what ancient Romans could build - some of it is still standing 2000 years later.
 
Supernaut91 said:
Ancient Human Civilizations were all gym rats?
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Hard manual labour every day from childhood is effective strength-building exercise and there was a lot of hard manual labour before modern technology was invented. You didn't get "gym rats" until ancient Greece, but you had a lot of muscular people before then.
 
LateX'Dog said:
There is a couple of sites where there are 250+ ton rocks moved into place.... I'm sorry but we as humans are resourceful and skilful, but sometimes some thing's are just way beyond "pulling on a rope" or "pulling/pushing over logs" can achieve.

Easter Island is a very good example of massive rocks 50+ tons being moved into place, with no trees on the island and no logical means of moving them.

Please by all means prove me wrong, but i can not find any logical way people can move such massive rocks with human horsepower.
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When the statues were built and put into place there were trees which has been proved.
Stop going to CT sites and do some proper research.

I've been to Karnak Temple 3 times and the ancient builders actually left something in place which proved how they did things but walking around the place still makes you think that they had help BUT THEY DIDN'T.
That is compacted sand that they used to get the blocks higher.
You underestimate the power of Gods on people.

DSC00544-medium.jpg
 
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ScoTTyBEEE said:
The evidence for it is very compelling wouldn't you say.

belgium1990.jpg


No-one can dispute this image isn't real, all analysis says it is. It also fits descriptions from hundreds of people/police/military e.t.c.
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That only proves it's a UFO, a UFO doesn't mean aliens.

MW
 
LateX'Dog said:
Going on my personal experience here, i couldn't imagine my local community coming together for anything other then there own self interests. But that isn't an indication of the times back then, just the only example i realistically have.
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Because we are selfish and won't do it.
On the other hand I have seen Jehova's come together to build Kingdom Halls in less than 2 weeks, The Hamish always build things as a community and I've seen our local Pakistani's get together to build houses.
If you look at those 3 examples you will see that religion is a great factor just like it was in ancient times.
For instance in Egypt every person absolutely believed that the Pharoah was God on Earth and he had to be treated right, if not terrible things would happen.
This wasn't because of torture or slavery but how things were passed down generation to generation.
Pyramids & Temples HAD to be built and they had 1000s of willing workers to do it with no proof of any slavery going on.
 
This is from personal experience (search my posts if you can be bothered, for the full story), very basically - I have seen a Real "Flying Saucer" up very close. I acknowledge this is not proof of aliens and this is something I have maintained whenever this has come up in conversation with people.

BUT the way this thing(s) moved, looked (and dissapeared) I'm pretty damn sure we don't have technology like that and this was 1996...
 
It does upset me that people think that ancient structures were built by aliens and can't give credit to the amazing people at the time.
Would so called advanced aliens with mathematical skills & planning way above ourselves build something as thrown together as this?
Look at the blocks, every one is a different size and basically made to fit, they are not pre-made Jenga blocks (Karl Pilkington reference).

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That's me in the middle.
 
We are still finding new species on our own planet, and dont know about the vast majority of the sea bed, so finding life off this planet will prove a challenge :p

I do believe this planet is not the only home to life in the entire galaxy though, just because we couldnt live on the sun, doesn't mean something else cant for example
 
Castiel said:
I am agnostic about the issue. However in the words of my favourite fictional character...."I want to believe"

I do find it interesting that many people who profess a belief that God(s) do not exist citing that there is no evidence and as such the default position must be negative, will hold the contrary position regarding extra terrestrial life given the criteria are basically the same....

I am agnostic about God, therefore logically I am agnostic about ETs......
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But the criteria aren't the same. You just have to look at the statistics to realise that there is a strong probability of extra-terrestrial (microbial) life existing. It's not "proof" obviously, but it is strong enough that it can be used as the basis for belief. The concept of God doesn't have the same statistical support. People commonly cite the "fine tuning" of the universe but this is a stupid argument for several reasons.

Intelligent alien life is another matter. It's cool to think it could be out there, but I really don't know. Your comparison to God is much more valid when applied to the specific case of intelligent life. I guess my beliefs could be summarised:

1) microbial alien life: yes, definitely. probably widespread on thousands of planets in our galaxy alone.
2) intelligent alien life: maybe, but if it does exist it's VERY rare and seperated from us not just by huge spatial distances but likely by huge temporal ones too. for this reason I doubt we'll ever meet them, therefore agnosticism on the issue is currently the most logical position.

EDIT: regarding microbial alien life. If we find microbes on titan or europa that would indicate that the universe is pretty much teeming with life and would be AMAZING.
 
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Dimple said:
It does upset me that people think that ancient structures were built by aliens and can't give credit to the amazing people at the time.
Would so called advanced aliens with mathematical skills & planning way above ourselves build something as thrown together as this?
Look at the blocks, every one is a different size and basically made to fit, they are not pre-made Jenga blocks (Karl Pilkington reference).

That's me in the middle.
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Just to nitpick what if you took a stone from the middle, meaning no corrosion etc, what if it was a "jenga" block perfectly constructed? would it change your mind (not that im saying aliens did anything for us, but there are still things we don't know jack about)

just asking :p

The pyramids are 99.9% man made, that's for sure i just wanted a "what if" answer lol
 
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