Do extra terrestrials exist? If so...

I believe that there is probably life out there somewhere. However I do not believe it has come into contact with us

This, but i'm starting to question things.

I've become more and more intrigued by the "Ancient Astronaut" theory.

Some of the things that man has achieved with extremely primitive tools back in ancient times that we can barely do today, just makes me question things.
 
This, but i'm starting to question things.

I've become more and more intrigued by the "Ancient Astronaut" theory.

Some of the things that man has achieved with extremely primitive tools back in ancient times that we can barely do today, just makes me question things.

No it doesn't.
I used to think like that but when you get to the bottom of how people thought and what they needed to achieve to satisfy their Gods then it isn't surprising.
I've been to the pyramids 3 times and anybody who can think that ET helped to build them need locking up.
Also if ET helped to build some of the worlds most ancient structures then they must live in a right cess hole if that's their idea of how to build.
I suggest you watch the Ancient Alien series and shout 'No' at the TV like I do all the way through it.

I want to believe but there's nothing there yet.
 
No it doesn't.
I used to think like that but when you get to the bottom of how people thought and what they needed to achieve to satisfy their Gods then it isn't surprising.
I've been to the pyramids 3 times and anybody who can think that ET helped to build them need locking up.
Also if ET helped to build some of the worlds most ancient structures then they must live in a right cess hole if that's their idea of how to build.
I suggest you watch the Ancient Alien series and shout 'No' at the TV like I do all the way through it.

I want to believe but there's nothing there yet.

There is a couple of sites where there are 250+ ton rocks moved into place.... I'm sorry but we as humans are resourceful and skilful, but sometimes some thing's are just way beyond "pulling on a rope" or "pulling/pushing over logs" can achieve.

Easter Island is a very good example of massive rocks 50+ tons being moved into place, with no trees on the island and no logical means of moving them.

Please by all means prove me wrong, but i can not find any logical way people can move such massive rocks with human horsepower.
 
No it doesn't.
I used to think like that but when you get to the bottom of how people thought and what they needed to achieve to satisfy their Gods then it isn't surprising.
I've been to the pyramids 3 times and anybody who can think that ET helped to build them need locking up.
Also if ET helped to build some of the worlds most ancient structures then they must live in a right cess hole if that's their idea of how to build.
I suggest you watch the Ancient Alien series and shout 'No' at the TV like I do all the way through it.

I want to believe but there's nothing there yet.

A lot of people do not realise just how advanced ancient civilisations actually were, they seem to think that science, architecture, art, and so on have all suddenly appeared in the last couple of thousand years, in the particular case of science, in the last 500.....yet much of what the likes of Galileo, Newton et al published and popularised was not actually totally new and was based on ancient works by polymaths from far older cultures, those that built Pyramids and so on....

No doubt they completed amazing wonders that have stood the ravages of time, but they knew what they were doing, they knew the principles and had the knowledge, tools and more importantly, the manpower to do this without the need of extra-terrestrial intervention.....and never underestimate the desire of man to reach their respective Gods......in times of great piety, people would risk their lives to build the Great Cathedrals or the Great Pyramids or their equivalent, just because they believed their Gods demanded it.

Stargate has a lot to answer for...;)
 
There is a couple of sites where there are 250+ ton rocks moved into place.... I'm sorry but we as humans are resourceful and skilful, but sometimes some thing's are just way beyond "pulling on a rope" or "pulling/pushing over logs" can achieve.

Easter Island is a very good example of massive rocks 50+ tons being moved into place, with no trees on the island and no logical means of moving them.

Please by all means prove me wrong, but i can not find any logical way people can move such massive rocks with human horsepower.

With a strong enough and long enough lever, mankind can move the world.....

Rapa Nui's stone head statues are not 50+ tons, they are 13ft, 14 tons and as they were put into place during the 15th-17th centuries, it is not far fetched that the inhabitants were able to build and erect them using simple techniques...the quarries prove that they were carved and then moved on the Island, and the lack of trees doesn't mean there are no trees or that there were no trees, because the deforestation of Rapa Nui was probably contributed to by the construction of the moai....

Trees are on the Island albeit only in isolated groves, and the deforestation of the Island supports the theory that the moai were moved using well known techniques such as log rollers and levers....

There is nothing unexplainable about the moai on Easter Island, why they built them, and why the population eventually died out are more open to conjecture however....but again there are several probable explanations that do not require outside intervention.
 
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There is undoubtedly an explanation that doesn't involve aliens...

Oh i'm sure there is, but until then, it has as much credence as anything else.


Ollantaytambo

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/9986/ollantaytambomonolithen.jpg

Some of the rocks in this picture are estimated to weigh over 150 tons and they where moved into there resting place.


Teotihuacan

Using Mica in the construction of there temples, but Mica is only found in the extreme south of southern America.


Karnak

Some of the stone work there is incredible and the sizes of the rocks are just massive. Either they built it out of a rock face, or i have no idea how they managed to move those rocks to where they are.


Ajanta Caves

This is a great example of how humans with the determination to please there gods can achieve incredible things, but even this is a feat of some amazing engineering.


Church of Lalibela

Built from the top of the ground down into the solid rock......


The Moai statues of Easter Island

The production and transportation of the 887 statues are considered remarkable creative and physical feats. The tallest moai erected, called Paro, was almost 10 metres (33 ft) high and weighed 82 tons; the heaviest erected was a shorter but squatter moai at Ahu Tongariki, weighing 86 tons; and one unfinished sculpture, if completed, would have been approximately 21 metres (69 ft) tall with a weight of about 270 tons.


Pumapunku

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9102/pumapunku7.jpg

The largest of these stone blocks is 7.81 meters long, 5.17 meters wide, averages 1.07 meters thick, and is estimated to weigh about 131 metric tons. The second largest stone block found within the Pumapunka is 7.90 meters long, 2.50 meters wide, and averages 1.86 meters thick. Its weight has been estimated to be 85.21 metric tons.

In assembling the walls of Pumapunku, each stone was finely cut to interlock with the surrounding stones and the blocks fit together like a puzzle, forming load-bearing joints without the use of mortar. One common engineering technique involves cutting the top of the lower stone at a certain angle, and placing another stone on top of it which was cut at the same angle. The precision with which these angles have been utilized to create flush joints is indicative of a highly sophisticated knowledge of stone-cutting and a thorough understanding of descriptive geometry. Many of the joints are so precise that not even a razor blade will fit between the stones. Much of the masonry is characterized by accurately cut rectilinear blocks of such uniformity that they could be interchanged for one another while maintaining a level surface and even joints.

The Romans moved the so-called Trilithon, weighing 800 tons, from the quarry to the Temple of Jupiter at Baalbek (in eastern Lebanon) in the first century AD. HOW!? 800 tons!!!??

I mean please, please please prove me wrong, but thinking about how they managed to do the above with chisels and hammers is just mind boggling.
 
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Oh dear, I know Lazar's story well but here's a bit of info about the liar - .

However, his credibility has come under fire after "schools he was supposed to have attended had no record of him, while others in the scientific community had no memory of ever meeting him

Lazar claims to hold degrees from the California Institute of Technology and Massachusetts Institute of Technology. In 1993, the Los Angeles Times looked into his background and found there was no evidence to support those claims.[1] Stanton Friedman was only able to verify that Lazar took electronics courses in the late 1970s at Pierce Junior College.[3] The Times did discover that in 1990 Lazar had pled guilty to felony pandering, when he installed a computer system for a local brothel,[4] declared bankruptcy and listed his occupation as self-employed photo processor on documents.[1] A 1991 Times article reported, Lazar was "on probation in Clark County, Nevada, on a pandering charge. His educational and professional background cannot be verified -- a fact he attributes to government deletion of records."[5] However military officials claim Lazar never worked in any of their facilities, German researcher Michael Hesemann (see his book Beyond Roswell)[6] found an incoming payment on Lazar's bank account. The number of the sender's account refers to a salary payments from military facility in Nevada.

Oh dear, it's not like you're showing me anything new with that passage from wikipedia. It's now hard to find, I've read it a few times and it doesn't really prove anything. If Bob Lazar wasn't educated then why did he work at Los Alamos? Where did he get the knowledge to build a hydrogen car? Etc.

Perhaps he is a compulsive liar, I sounded too sure in my first post - in reality I don't know whether to think he's a liar or telling the truth. Regardless, I do believe that there is other intelligent life out there though.
 
Trees are on the Island albeit only in isolated groves, and the deforestation of the Island supports the theory that the moai were moved using well known techniques such as log rollers and levers....

There is nothing unexplainable about the moai on Easter Island, why they built them, and why the population eventually died out are more open to conjecture however....but again there are several probable explanations that do not require outside intervention.

"Sometime before the arrival of Europeans on Easter Island, the Rapanui experienced a tremendous upheaval in their social system brought about by a change in their island's ecology... By the time of European arrival in 1722, the island's population had dropped to 2,000 – 3,000 from a high of approximately 15,000 just a century earlier." By that time, 21 species of trees and all species of land birds went extinct through some combination of overharvesting/overhunting, rat predation, and climate change, the island was largely deforested, and it did not have any trees more than 10 feet tall. Loss of large trees meant that residents were no longer able to build seaworthy vessels, significantly diminishing their fishing abilities. This was further exacerbated by the loss of land birds and the collapse in seabird populations. By the 18th century, residents of the island were largely sustained by farming, with domestic chickens as the primary source of protein.

They basically strip mined the land they where on and paid for it by the loss of ecosystem.

The trees on that island where part of the Arecaceae tree family. The logs they produce are spongy and bouncy, which probably aren't the best for transporting 80 ton stones?
 
I mean please, please please prove me wrong, but thinking about how they managed to do the above with chisels and hammers is just mind boggling.

Not just chilsels and hammers, and one man with a chainsaw will never carve as many trees as 10,000 with chisels.....

If we use Easter Island as an example;

Archaeologists have demonstrated that the Statues on Easter Island could have been moved on specially constructed Y frames and parallel wooden rails, along with a level pulley system to pull and erect the Statues....don't forget that the majority of the Statues never left the quarries, and it simply is not true that there are no trees on the Island, and the deforestation was probably exacerbated by the wide scale building of these statutes and the overpopulation of the Island.

Evidence of middens shows that the Islanders lost there ability to fish effectively and the drop in bird bones and eggs illustrates the impact on their diet that the incipient deforestation had on their ability to feed themselves....

We also have significant evidence of soil erosion, and when you understand that the Europeans reported sparce forested areas and that some of the Trees did not become extinct on the Island until well into the 20th Century, this indicates also that deforestation happened over time and that Easter Island is not, and was not a Treeless Island.....you can see how what you believe to be improbable is, in fact, entirely possible.
 
They basically strip mined the land they where on and paid for it by the loss of ecosystem.

The trees on that island where part of the Arecaceae tree family. The logs they produce are spongy and bouncy, which probably aren't the best for transporting 80 ton stones?

And yet Archaeologists have successfully re-erected some of the Statues using traditional materials and techniques.....

It is simply that the precise method is unknown, not that it is not possible using techniques that the polynesians had at the time.

Also you might want to reassess the use of Palmwood, which is a hardwood that because of its strength and elasticity is actually eminently suited to building methods for transporting heavy stone monoliths.

Really, it is not the best example to illustrate your conjecture.
 
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you can see how what you believe to be improbable is, in fact, entirely possible.

While i agree with you about the trees, i can not see how a wooden Y frame could support 80+ ton's of stone while moving and going up a hill....

This is the quarry where most of the Moai where built and still rest

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7383/rapanuicratereranarorat.jpg

The largest one is 270 TONS!? Come on.....:eek:

Also you might want to reassess the use of Palmwood, which is a hardwood that because of its strength and elasticity is actually eminently suited to building methods for transporting heavy stone monoliths

Also i have no IDEA about trees, hence the question mark at the end of my sentence.

The type of tree on Easter Island was called Paschalococos, based on the Arecaceae family and i can't find anything that would suggest they where a strong wood and in fact only found reference to the wood being spongy.
 
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While i agree with you about the trees, i can not see how a wooden Y frame could support 80+ ton's of stone while moving and going up a hill....

This is the quarry where most of the Moai where built and still rest

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7383/rapanuicratereranarorat.jpg

The largest one is 270 TONS!? Come on.....:eek:

The largest one actually moved was around 80 tons was it not?

And again, there was probably several concurrent methods in play, including the building of wooden rails along which the statues could be moved....given enough manpower (archaeologists say 150 men per statue moving over significant time) it is not difficult to see how it was possible to do this with techniques that they had.
 

No, you did, I merely remained within the example you gave so not to confuse the issue:

Easter Island is a very good example of massive rocks 50+ tons being moved into place, with no trees on the island and no logical means of moving them.

Please by all means prove me wrong, but i can not find any logical way people can move such massive rocks with human horsepower.

I think we have demonstated logically how the inhabitants of Easter Island could carve, move and erect the Maoi without extraterrestrial intervention.....:)


Also i have no IDEA about trees, hence the question mark at the end of my sentence.

The type of tree on Easter Island was called Paschalococos, based on the Arecaceae family and i can't find anything that would suggest they where a strong wood and in fact only found reference to the wood being spongy.

From what I have read, there were over two dozen varieties of Palm on Easter Island at one time. Also it appears that they also used large stone tablets or shoes with which to move the smaller statues, almost like 'walking' a fridge, albeit with levers, ropes and a hundred or so men....so another method to consider.

Oral history claims that the statues walked, and Mr. Rapu believes he has found examples of the "shoes" they wore for the journey: stones, flat on the topside, used by the islanders to pivot a trussed-up statue back and forth and forward -- like moving a refrigerator -- while synchronizing their exertions with chanting. Some experiments show a convincing way the moai, if lashed upright into a wooden frame, could have marched themselves along practically under their own power, as though hobbling on crutches. In truth, islanders may have used a combination of techniques.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124242685832325213.html
 
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The largest one actually moved was around 80 tons was it not?

86 tons.

And again, there was probably several concurrent methods in play, including the building of wooden rails along which the statues could be moved....given enough manpower (archaeologists say 150 men per statue moving over significant time) it is not difficult to see how it was possible to do this with techniques that they had.

The world record for pulling power on a level surface with very little resistance and wheels is 188.83 tons by 1 man. He had a level surface and modern day wheels to help him. And he moved it 8m.

500kg is the world record for the heaviest dead lift from a single man.

These are with modern day medicine and exercise equipment.

So you think that 150 men and women from around 1250 - 1500 AD, plus logs, plus a Y frame, going up a hill and then lifting from a horizontal to a vertical position, while most likely starving is possible?

Finding this very very hard to believe.

I need to sleep, but will continue in the morning.
 
86 tons.



The world record for pulling power on a level surface with very little resistance and wheels is 188.83 tons by 1 man. He had a level surface and modern day wheels to help him. And he moved it 8m.

500kg is the world record for the heaviest dead lift from a single man.

These are with modern day medicine and exercise equipment.

So you think that 150 men and women from around 1250 - 1500 AD, plus logs, plus a Y frame, going up a hill and then lifting from a horizontal to a vertical position, while most likely starving is possible?

Finding this very very hard to believe.

I need to sleep, but will continue in the morning.


To begin with, they were not starving at that time, the Island was still abundant and had yet to be ecologically unviable, also using an example of one man to dismiss the efforts of hundreds and given that he probably pulled that 8m in a matter of minutes rather than days or weeks doesn't seem to illustrate very much or relate to the techniques discussed.

Ultimately it is eminently easier to believe that the Statues were erected using the techniques that the archaelogists recreated themselves and I have touched upon in this thread, than your proposed alternative that they were moved into place by Extraterrestrials or by some unknown technology or force we have no knowledge of.

Sleep well. :)
 
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Reflections on what this experimental archaeology project has taught us, in human terms

1. The average statue could have been moved and erected with the combined resources of six to eight families.

2. Larger statues required more resources and greater cooperation among larger groups.

3. Pulling a statue involved the largest number of people. The transport task was, therefore, the opportunity for the community to demonstrate its unity, organized effort and dedication to their chiefs and leaders. Pride played an important role in the effort.

4. Smaller numbers of people with more specialized skills were needed for modifying, adjusting and manipulating the statue during turning and lifting after they had reached their ahu destinations.

5. All of the required skills and materials would have been available to the average Polynesian chief. These skills were learned and relearned over generations, and are typical of other construction efforts, including canoe building.

6. Problems such as we encountered during transport would have been solved by modifying and adapting the transport rig; the position of the statue on the rig allowed nicely for problem solving.

7. Pivoting or turning a statue on its transport rig before placing it in position to move up the ramp could have been accomplished with coordinated levering, as Vince Lee demonstrated.

8. Coastal and inland ahu probably required deployment and placement of people in different ways, but the basic means and methods probably didn't change much.

9. The statue acquired a history as it moved across the landscape, and a series of traditions were accumulated as people worked with the moai to reach their destination.

10. People worked on "island time," over cycles that were both natural and ceremonial.

11. The most well-traveled moai transport roads are on the south coast. The largest number and heaviest statues are on these roads, destined for ahu controlled by the more successful and powerful chiefs. Some statues on other, longer roads were probably there for non-transport reasons, i.e. politics, territory or resources.

12. Finally, our projections of time, resources and people required to move the average statue have been largely verified. The successful chief who, in ancient times, accomplished a task such as we have defined, probably accumulated and distributed the necessary resources for several years before undertaking to transport and erect a moai. Many factors could have intervened or interrupted the process before it was complete. The moai look different to me now. They are still artefacts of stone, but are no longer inert. I have a better understanding of the investment needed to make and move them, and a greater appreciation for the way they acquire meaning in the community. I have gained respect for the magnitude of the Rapa Nui accomplishment. Our moai has been christened "tangata anga" by the people who worked on this project. That means "people working," and he is a vital symbol of passionate, cooperative effort. His final home will be in the island school, where he will serve to teach young people the aesthetics of the past. Many thanks to all who sent questions and comments via this Web site. Look for "tangata anga" when next you visit Rapa Nui.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/easter/dispatches/
http://www.mysteriousplaces.com/Easter_Island/html/contro2.html
 
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Lots of these ancient onstructions were also built over hundreds of years, with hundreds or thousands or even tens of thousands of workers. That is a lot of man-hours.

There is also lots of evidence that they knew about pully systems so could make the effective weight of the stones mere fractions of the true weight. Making a 100 ton stone have the force of 5 tons and having hundreds stockly men pulling them for months and years is not very surprising.
 
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