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And solicitors...
Does something need to be done about dogs?
- Thread starter Dis86
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The only guff being spouted is your children hating take tbh... perhaps you're a bull terrier fan because they sometimes kill or maim kids?
I certainly don't hate dogs though.
Fancy quoting where he said that?
Probably not I guess as that becomes everyone else's job but yours.
I didn't claim he did say that, read the quote and then read my comment again.
They are brought up carefully and are adorable, until they bite someone, then they recategorised as been brought up wrong.
I agree that we shouldnt label all of them bad, but I disagree in that its all about how they brought up, there is people who own multiple dogs who have admitted they sometimes have dogs that misbehave even though they given the same treatment as the dogs that cause no trouble.
The issue with the questioned breeds, is their strength, when it goes bad it can be really dangerous.
A compromise would be a dangerous dog list, where any dog with high strength can be owned, but under license, on lead at all times in public places and maybe even a muzzle. Both sides win, although I expect there will be people saying leads are cruel etc.
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Exactly, it's not a hard point to follow, some people get fixated on monocausal explanations which are almost always inherently dumb. In reality, bad owners can cause bad behaviour *and* some breeds are inherently more dangerous than others.
The other frequent dumb argument is stuff along the lines of "Chihuahuas are more aggressive", they may well be more aggressive as a breed but they're tiny and way less capable of causing damage.
Most of these breeds have been artificially created by humans, it's not like we're talking about some species that will go extinct, humans created bull terrier type dogs fairly recently we could just as easily eliminate them too.
We should also get rid of pedigree breeds as clearly people can't be trusted to ensure enough genetic diversity is maintained for the breeds to not be health disasters, make it so vets get their license revoked for taking business with such owners.
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Depends on the breed, (modern) Pugs and similar dogs probably should be eliminated as they have difficulty breathing and frankly it's pretty cruel.
They didn't used to be like that, you can now get retro Pugs with a longer snout much like the older versions and thus eliminating the breathing issues.
They didn't used to be like that, you can now get retro Pugs with a longer snout much like the older versions and thus eliminating the breathing issues.
Its a question...he's asking something. Not asserting something. Do you get how questions work?
As I went over a long time ago in this thread, the Staffie that attacked my Wife whilst she was walking our dog was also the soppiest, most docile, bestest family dog in the entire world (As described by its owner and assessed by the Police Dog Handler)..
To save having to go back a while in the thread:
The Mrs was just walking our (Spaniel) dog down the street close to our house, out of some bushes pops an adorable, cute, soppy Staffie.. It lunged at the Mrs, bit her arm, then when our dog went to protect her, the Staffie clamped on to ours, dragging it down the path like a rag doll and was dragging it down the pathway between two houses. It took 4 men to subdue and get the Staffie to release..
The Police said that the owners were responsible dog owners, the dog was well trained and it was a 'bootiful' family pet, posing no threat at all. The local facebook group apparently went crazy (I only saw the screenshots as it had to be taken down), 3 local Staffie owners and the owner of the one that attacked her all jumped in to accuse my Wife of all sorts, then every argument about amazing family dogs, soppiness, well trained, responsible owners all came out (A bit like some in this thread).
The failure mode? Something along the lines of a family member was visiting, accidentally left a door and window open for a split second, the dog escaped, found itself outside in public with strangers and other animals going by, clearly felt threatened, tried to defend it's territory and my Wife happened to be walking by... It took 4 men to subdue it and get our dog released... 3 of those have dogs themselves, yet none knew how to, nor remotely expected to ever need to know how to deal with a dog that genetically is built for efficient killing with an insanely high clamping ability..
It appears that even the nicest, soppiest, well trained dog might not understand that its territory ends at the pavement and that passers by aren't a threat.. In which case you are in a situation where its breed and genetics then play a huge factor in the outcome.
I also went over the few reports that have been published on dangerous dogs and shown how Staffies feature very very prominently in all lists and are banned in some other European countries..
So, my opinion is simple.. It's demonstrably foolish to think you can always be in control of any dog, and with Staffies, whilst they make good family pets, they are literally stated as being protective of family members, and somehow no one seems to have thought it through, a dog bred with the muscular skeletal design that makes it efficient at killing bulls that is protective of its family might actually be a problem if you are seen as a threat.
There is a reason they are banned in Germany and Switzerland and restricted in Spain and Ireland..
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Soldato
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You have given ONE number, and rely on "it's been widely reported" as an appeal to authority to make up the shortfall.
But again, if these things are so overwhelmingly common, where are they all, then?
You keep bleating that they're everywhere, in all rescue centres in the UK, so why does examination not support this assertion of yours?
Citation?
Did you miss the link to the actual legislation, then?
And no, it doesn't mean everyone registers through the KC, which is why I didn't say that. What I did point out is that they have access to every other operators data, so are in a perfect position to facilitate reports on such things on such sites as linked.
So?
Various things get reported on which later turn out to be untrue, with newspapers often repeating the same inaccuracies from the same source(s).
Something being in a newspaper doesn't mean it's true and so far you only have one very vague data source.
I'll rephrase - Why didn't you say ONLY that, and then leave it at that?
As for your point - You ****** that down the drain when you added the drivel about commonality in rescue centres.
And if you want to get technical, I'm citing several dozen personal snapshots over almost two decades.
The irrelevant point was the assertion that you brought up in the first place.
Why would you bring it up if it has absolutely no bearing on the point you were trying to make in the sentence before?
It's been reported multiple times by rescue organisations including the RSPCA and you've provided nothing to dispute it other than your own anecdotal claim.
I didn't ask you for a link to legislation, you made a duff claim using data from pedigree breeds registered with the kennel club, you've totally missed that not everyone registers their dogs with the kennel club.
The point of highlighting that Staffies are common in rescue centers is to highlight how common they are, I doubt very much those abandoned dogs had owners who were keen on kennel club registration!
It's not drivel it's been widely reported and you've provided nothing tangible to dispute that. I said that because it's been reported and I've supported the claim for different years too, you on the other hand provided nothing. Also I didn't only say that, I've given you an explanation of my positon multiple times now.
Again though suppose for the sake of argument that they're now 2nd or 3rd most common in rescue centres then what? It doesn't change my point.
Would you prefer that - they were the most common dog for the RSPCA in 2019 and most common for Battersea in 2014... but, for the sake of argument, they may not be in 2023 - you don't have any actual data or reports to contradict the clain but you've been quoting me repeatedly with some obsession about it so let us assume they may be the most popular or they may be 2nd or 3rd most popular in 2023 ok?
Now what? The argument still holds that they're clearly a commonly owned dog and not some niche breed.
If you're going to dispute that and actually hold the positon that they're not common then provide something to back it up.
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Soldato
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Fair enough. Believe it or not I actually quite like kids, my guff is more nihilistic guff.
Soldato
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Then where are all these links and citations and references? Where is the data to show it?
You're so keen to demand this of other people, why don't you do as I first asked and deliver the same yourself?
As for 'disputing' - You said it, I asked you to prove it and you so far have come back with just one number and a whole host of empty claims about what some other entites have reported - I, at least, have some personal experience
The legislastion is definitive proof that there *is* compulsory registration in the UK, which exactly the opposite of what you so reliably informed me.
The legislation also lays out the conditions of both the keeper's registration, and that of the various operators who maintain the database, of which the KC is one. As a result of this, and their general fame, the KC is one of the primary sources of data for canine-related statistics - You mentioned the UK dog population was at "an estimated 13 million dogs" which, funnily enough, is the same number the KC says they have on their database. Makes me wonder where you got that statistic... or rather where the newspaper that you subsequently rebleated got it. The second likely is the PFMA's 2-year survey of 5,000 and then 8,000 sample customers, which they then upscaled to merely estimate their number.
Making claims about how many Staffies are in rescue centres just shows how many have been given up, for various reasons, while citing the RSPCA only highlights the likelihood of those dogs having been taken off the owners for the latters' cruelty.
It does nothing to address the ownership population at all, and your assertion about lacking KC or any other route to registration only undermines your argument that they're not just status dogs but also common family pets. Now I would agree that they're family pets in many (if not a majority of) cases, but you're not helping that argument with your assertions.
It's drivel until you can actually provide the numbers that back up these 'widely reported' assertions that you're rebleating.
I know what you said, yet you seem to be deliberately ignoring my very simple question - Why didn't you just state the original argument and leave it at that? Why did you embelish it with an unrelated assertion that undermines your argument?
As for me - rather than taking your (and my wife's stance of) relying on what is 'widely reported', I actually went and looked for myself in depth at what was in rescue centres. I found the 'widely reported' situation to not be in evidence at almost every centre I ever visited.
That's notably better, as it does at least add some small element of context... and a wise man once told me that context matters... Still a far cry from "They're the most common breed of dog at basically every shelter in the UK", though, if you're basing that off just two of the better-known shelters.
The truth at many shelters is that they often won't take anything that even looks like a Staffie, as this bad reputation means they'll be more difficult to rehome compared to Beagles, Golden Retrievers and Labs.
No offense but I'm not bothering to read the rest of your waffle as you've clearly not included any links/evidence to address my point, I'll keep my reply shorter and to the point in the hope you come back with some evidence yourself if you're going to carry on disputing this point:
In 2011 Battersea Dogs home launched a campaign because they were getting so many Staffies:
Staffies are just misunderstood says Battersea campaign
With thousands of abandoned Staffies flooding its centres, Battersea Dogs & Cats Home has launched a major campaign to reconnect people with the gentle nature of this misunderstood and increasingly shunned breed.
www.vettimes.co.uk
In 2014 the Staffie or Staffie cross was still the most common dog at Battersea dog's home:
17 staffie facts that will break your heart - and 18 pictures that will melt it
Guaranteed to make your day.
metro.co.uk
In 2019 the Staffie was announced as the most common dog for the RSPCA the previous year though numbers were apparently falling:
Love-a-bull Staffies: The 'misunderstood' breed - RSPCA
The number of Staffies coming into our care falls by 34% over five years
www.rspca.org.uk
The fact is the Staffie has clearly been reported as being the most common breed in shelters at multiple times over the years to the point where they've resorted to PR campaigns over it.
Now, assume, for the sake of argument it has perhaps fallen to 2nd or 3rd place now in 2023 (again you've not provided any data to dispute anything here) that doesn't negate my point which was that the breed was common and not some niche breed.
As for why I've mentioned, as part of that point, that it was no 1... well because it's clearly been reported multiple times as the number 1 breed taken in by different rescue organisations... the Dogs Trust was also running some campaigns not too long ago in Manchester trying to rehome Staffies too.
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Soldato
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Provide some data more comprehensive than just a couple of numbers pulled from a newspaper, along with the context that actually supports your otherwise baseless argument, then.
Give me some more substantial data that supports your point, as that's something I can then address.
Until you can manage that, like I asked in the first place, your point is pretty baseless and your argument very weak.
As have some other centres that deal with other breeds.
So what? Once again, widely reported does not assure accuracy.
So far you've taken just two numbers from the centres where Staffies are most likely to end up anyway, and assumed the story is the same at all the 1,000+ other shelters in the UK, and all without bothering to look anywhere more substantial than newspapers and opinion blogs.
You've already seen data on how common the breed is overall, and again you (quite wrongly) assume that being commonly abandoned or confiscated to some rescue centres = common ownership everywhere throughout the UK, whereas the numbers provided assert otherwise.
Yeah, so?
If you'd read my previous response, you'd see I already stated shelters have trouble rehoming Staffies, to the point where they often don't take them. There are other shelters that campaign for other breeds such as ex-Police GSDs which, due to their training, often have behaviour traits that make them unsuitable for most adopters.
It still has nothing to do with your point about it being a common family pet.
Again you've not provided anything yourself so I've ignored the rest of your waffle. It's clearly not a baseless argument though it's been reported numerous times, Battersea is one of the largest and best-known rescue centres in the UK, the RSPCA is our national animal welfare organisation, the dogs trust is a large national charity...
It's not a baseless claim to point out that staffies are the number 1 dogs in shelters or at least have been reported as such many times over the years. You replied with some kennel club statistics but not all bull terrier types will be registered with the kennel club, plenty of staffie and staffie cross owners probably won't register them just as the owner of any other mongrel won't register with the kennel club. The fact they're common in shelters demonstrates they're not just some niche breed.
But again why not address this point:
Now, assume, for the sake of argument it has perhaps fallen to 2nd or 3rd place now in 2023 (again you've not provided any data to dispute anything here) that doesn't negate my point which was that the breed was common and not some niche breed.
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Soldato
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Utter tosh - You've cited a mere two out of more than a thousand centres. Not a sound argument in the slightest.
My very first request of you was to back the claim up. You have repeatedly refused.
My evidence, while anecdotal, is based on direct frequent experience over many years and provides far more 'snapshots' than your two sources of third-hand journalistic appeals to authority.
Are you saying they are the number one, or are you now falling back them having merely been reported as such? Which is it?
It doesn't matter who they register with, which *is* a legal requirement, because the KC have access to every other operators' registration data.
I've addressed this and all your other objections several times, including explaining to you how and why my assertions are supported. The fact that you won't even read the "waffle", as you call it, shows deliberate ignorance of the truth and an outright disregard for honest discussion.
As for your other point, I've similarly explained that volume in shelters does not equate to volume in ownership. You're baselessly assuming correlation and implying causation. This isn't proportional representation here, which is also explained in your own links yet is something else you're conveniently ignoring.
That says it all really - I cite Battersea and the RSPCA you come back with... nothing... if you're going to dispute real data from rescue orgs and actual reported claims from them then provide some of your own! It's not an "argument from authority" to point out that one of the biggest shelters, Battersea, had more staffies than any other breed.
I'm not going to trust your anecdotes as you made basic errors previously like conflating most common = all dogs and accusing me of perpetuating myths when in fact the most common breed can easily make up the minority of dogs in a given shelter. Just because you observed lots of other dogs doesn't negate the point, thus the reported facts and data ar emore relevant here and staffies have been reported as the most common breed, by different organisations, on numerous occasions.
Yet you don't post any data, you're confusing pedigree breeds registered with the kennel club here. IF you're going to claim that the data on the number of staffies and staffie crosses in the UK as a whole is available then post it? Back in reality Staffies and staffie crosses are a common dog and common enough that various rescue dogs have reported them as the most common in their shelters, not all of those will be registered with the kennel club (the crosses especially are less likely to be) as it's an org concerned with pedigree dogs but again why not address the point:
Now, assume, for the sake of argument it has perhaps fallen to 2nd or 3rd place in various shelters now in 2023 (again you've not provided any data to dispute anything here) that doesn't negate my point which was that the breed was common and not some niche breed.
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