Dogs off a leash in parks

ttaskmaster said:
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HoneyBadger said:
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Sounds great, me too by the way, lots of experience with this. Yet you seem to have taken umbridge with my posts, despite us seemingly having the same outlook and only wish to care for our animals.
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I do sense we have our wires somewhat crossed, and have the utmost respect for anyone that cares for their animals because we all know a lot of people don't..

All I find unreasonable is the "If they ignore it, it's on them, or
HoneyBadger said:
however if someone continues to approach me despite me asking/warning them not too, then they have more to worry about than my GSD.
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I can think of many innocent situations where even a responsible owner of a well behaved dog may not see your sign or clearly hear/understand your verbal instruction and nothing will convince me that just approaching you/your dog is grounds for violence.

I do sense you aren't as bad as you make out, I mean I'm not the only one who got the impression you seem to be spoiling for a fight, and I can see from your other posts that you do take more precautions..
 
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Demon said:
All I find unreasonable is the "If they ignore it, it's on them"
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There's only so much you can reasonably do, though, and if people really are THAT willing to be so ******* retarded, then either your dog is going to end up being put to death for behaving perfectly naturally, or YOU have to step in and prevent it.

Demon said:
I can think of many innocent situations where even a responsible owner of a well behaved dog may not see your sign or clearly hear/understand your verbal instruction and nothing will convince me that just approaching you/your dog is grounds for violence.
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Okay then, smartarse - Tell us all what YOU would do in that situation, eh?
You have an owner utterly ignoring your warnings, and a dog bounding over, moments away from invading the safe space of your own distressed dog.
What is your stunning idea for dealing with it?
 
ttaskmaster said:
There's only so much you can reasonably do, though, and if people really are THAT willing to be so ******* retarded, then either your dog is going to end up being put to death for behaving perfectly naturally, or YOU have to step in and prevent it.

Okay then, smartarse - Tell us all what YOU would do in that situation, eh?
You have an owner utterly ignoring your warnings, and a dog bounding over, moments away from invading the safe space of your own distressed dog.
What is your stunning idea for dealing with it?
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I really do think you aren't reading my posts correctly, I said
I can think of many innocent situations where even a responsible owner of a well behaved dog may not see your sign or clearly hear/understand your verbal instruction and nothing will convince me that just approaching you/your dog is grounds for violence.
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I wasn't talking about retarded owners deliberately ignoring, when my dog is off the lead he's often 20+M away exploring/foraging, but will come back under recall and is well trained and under control at all times, however if HB was 20+M away I'd probably not see his sign, I'd probably not clearly hear or understand him shouting (as owners are shouting instructions to their dogs all the time), and my dog being normally social would probably start to approach his dog.. does that warrant violence if I haven't seen the sign or heard/understood the yelling?



But to address your question:
I'd approach it in one of two ways.
1. Muzzle the dog - If I can't control every situation and know that inevitably a dog may approach whether it's owner is responsible or not (as I said, I can think of lots of scenario's where it's bound to happen without malice), and based on the fact my dog will have a bad reaction, I would not want it able to escalate it to a fight, remembering that it's my dog that would get aggressive first.
2. If I truly lived in an area where all other owners where morons but me, I'd not take the dog out in public and find a private space.

No one wants their dog to be stressed, that's a very bad thing, but the answer isn't to put it deliberately out in a public space and rely on everything else perfectly responding to you if one little hiccup makes you feel like you'd end up in a situation you would need to enact violence on another dog..
 
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Demon said:
I wasn't talking about retarded owners deliberately ignoring, when my dog is off the lead he's often 20+M away exploring/foraging, but will come back under recall and is well trained and under control at all times, however if HB was 20+M away I'd probably not see his sign, I'd probably not clearly hear or understand him shouting (as owners are shouting instructions to their dogs all the time), and my dog being normally social would probably start to approach his dog.. does that warrant violence if I haven't seen the sign or heard/understood the yelling?
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If you cannot read a yellow jacket from 20 metres away, you need new glasses.
20.5m is the minimum required distance from which you must be able to read a vehicle number plate in order to qualify for a driving licence, and most yellow jackets have much larger lettering for this reason.

If you cannot hear someone shouting from 20m away, you probably need a new hearing aid, too.
From inside my house I can clearly discern the words of people merely talking as they walk past my house, 29.55 metres away (yes, I just measured it on the map) on the other side of a fairly busy road with traffic passing at (minimum) 40mph. If they were to shout, you'd definitely know what they were shouting!

So in both cases, if you are that badly impaired, your ability to safely watch over your unleashed dog is in question.
But more to the point, if your dog is under control and so well behaved, why would he then be going up to other people without permission... and if you are letting him, why are you so ignorantly and so rudely allowing him to do that?

Demon said:
1. Muzzle the dog - If I can't control every situation and know that inevitably a dog may approach whether it's owner is responsible or not (as I said, I can think of lots of scenario's where it's bound to happen without malice), and based on the fact my dog will have a bad reaction, I would not want it able to escalate it to a fight, remembering that it's my dog that would get aggressive first.
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Who's to say your dog would be the one getting aggressive first?
Ours have met plenty of other dogs, all of whom where innocent and friendly to start with and were getting on wonderfully well... until one did something the other didn't like and the aggression kicked off.
I've already addressed the muzzle issue and how many dogs would respond even worse to either being muzzled, or having something happen to them while muzzled. Not a useful option.

Demon said:
2. If I truly lived in an area where all other owners where morons but me, I'd not take the dog out in public and find a private space.
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Again, not always an option, especially given the price of some such spaces.

Demon said:
No one wants their dog to be stressed, that's a very bad thing, but the answer isn't to put it deliberately out in a public space and rely on everything else perfectly responding to you if one little hiccup makes you feel like you'd end up in a situation you would need to enact violence on another dog..
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Firstly, yes that often is the only answer, especially in the case of dogs needing rehabilitation, training, socialisation and so on.
Indeed, this is why some dogs wear yellow jackets - To give you the choice over whether your dogs interact with mine, and to warn you that you CAN expect bad reactions (yes including, but not limited to, possible violence) if you make that choice.
Technically, for your dog to come over, yours would have to be off lead and, in a magistrate's court, that would put him as "not being under proper control" with you as the negligent party.

This isn't a "little hiccup", though. This is you quite blatantly ignoring very clear, simple and very reasonable requests for you to just keep your distance. It's not difficult...
I get that you don't want to give an inch of ground on this very straightforward point, but Honey is doing everything reasonable to advertise the danger - It is then your responsibility to be aware of this danger and your legal responsibility to protect your dog from any pain, injury or suffering that may result.
 
I muzzle my animals if people (Strangers) are involved, so the vet, going to a crowded place. (Which I wouldn’t normally do as I know Murphy doesn’t like it) - Paws in the park was a training exercise do demonstrate he could do it and he did.

I wouldn’t muzzle him if taking him in the field that backs onto the house, or in the garden or private space, he absolutely hates wearing it for obvious reasons and I’m not going to force him to do so on the off chance some rouge dog is going to invade our space.

I’ve owned dogs all my life, the moment I see a yellow reflective jacket (or sometimes red) I steer clear, regardless of whether or not I can read what it says. If I can’t steer clear, I ‘pull over’ and get Murphy sat down next to me, or behind me if needs be and advise the on-coming person (By shouting) that they need to put their dog on a lead. I keep the lead relaxed, but taught, not so much to pull him but enough for him to know he can’t jump out.

As well behaved as dogs can be, things can turn quickly. Just because your dog is well behaved, doesn’t mean it’s going to continue, doesn’t mean it won’t make a move.

Depsite being handy in my youth, I am no longer and as my late dad once said to me, if anything son I wish you a peaceful life. I don’t go around looking for trouble, I would avoid violence at all costs but like the majority, would defend myself and my dogs if need be.

Even in the many situations created in this thread, I am a reasonable person with a good job, I’m not going to launch some attack on an owner or their dog unless massively provoked. Even then, I’m not going to fight an owner unless they instigated something.

What I would do is warn the person and if their dog invaded our space, I’d would attempt to shoosh the dog away, giving it a smack if needs be, potentially a knock on the nose with my dogs lead, assuming of course I can maintain control of Murphy, which is my primary concern.

Having witnessed fights between dogs before and as a teenager, seeing a staff killing our family cat as tried to get it off (It attacked me too) I’m aware of how things can escalate.

My point really is this, if I’m walking any of my dogs in a public place, I assume nothing, I keep them under control, I keep an eye on other walkers and dogs and try to work around them. The majority realise and we’re all very civil with each other, I mean, why wouldn’t we be?

But sometimes, you always get a numpty who thinks they know best. We’ve all experienced it. It’s these extreme scenarios that we pray will never happen, as a result, I try to take all precautions as reasonably possible.
 
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Demon said:
You are missing the point entirely so I’ll leave you to it.
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No, I get your point - You don't think it's reasonable... but what you think is ultimately irrelevant, and I did actually speak with a barrister about this last night - End of the day, his dog is on lead, yours is not. If yours goes over to him, your dog is not under control. You are the party at fault.
 
As sad as the above story is, she's only got herself to blame in that situation. I've noticed more and more farmers putting electric fences up as well, if your dog is off the lead and it gets through whilst getting a zap, then you could have a difficult time getting it back as they can dart off in shock.

Farmers don't mess about, particularly the older generation. At times they do go overboard and a local farmer here recently got his shotgun license removed.
 
ttaskmaster said:
No, I get your point - You don't think it's reasonable... but what you think is ultimately irrelevant, and I did actually speak with a barrister about this last night - End of the day, his dog is on lead, yours is not. If yours goes over to him, your dog is not under control. You are the party at fault.
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I could do a lengthy reply, but seriously, having been through this with a badly guarding dog and everything I had to do including having my sister in law (Partner in a law firm) find out if the advice I was given that I must muzzle the dog whilst out in public due to the legalities from the behavioural therapist was true (it was) then forgive me for not overly responding.
 
Demon said:
if the advice I was given that I must muzzle the dog whilst out in public due to the legalities from the behavioural therapist was true
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Again, does not matter what long-winded specific legal advice for your specific dog and its specific circumstances has been given - Yours is on a lead, the one approaching you is not and the owner is not recalling it. The latter is the one with less control being applied.
 
Dogs without reliable immediate recall amongst livestock need a shock collar, two of my rescues had never seen livestock in their lives, and livestock guarding breeds can see any strange animal as a threat, so once they've had a few weeks to see livestock behind electric fences they are introduced to a recall collar and then let in to see how they behave. If they chase they get a mild zap, if determined and continue to chase they get a few full whacks. Within a week they have learnt. All my dogs now ignore the cattle an sheep, A zap is much better than a 12 bore, which are LIBERALLY used round these parts against any dog running livestock. One farmer acquaintance has shot over ten dogs in the last few years. The others have been brought up around exotic birds and livestock and treat them as their charges, as they have been bred for. In fact they get distressed if they hear the peacocks shouting `cause they've seen a buzzard, or the cattle call for whatever reason, which is good. The standard poodle even plays with the emus, and the birds love chasing about with her. I even managed to teach Mungo to buy my beer when I go to the loo ;) His brother, out of sight on the other lead has bought sod all, he's a tight git...

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hattie-emus1.jpg
 
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