Dogs off a leash in parks

ChroniC said:
True but I don't go round kicking dogs, i.e I can pick my battles.
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And neither do I. I just got fed up of loyal dog owners essentially saying it's our fault that a dog came up to my kids and jumped on them. Then the amount of projection about reasons why people/kids may deserve a reaction from a dog. It's ridiculous.
 
ttaskmaster said:
Define violent.
In this situation, you're on about muzzling a dog to stop it defending itself. That's just stupid and really not the way to go, any more than your willingness to defend yourself would mean you should be jacketed.

Dogs do sometimes bark and growl at each other... that doesn't make them violent, any more than you having a shouting match with some **** that just cut you up on the road makes you a violent person. Occasionally they may snap at other dogs who need more convincing to **** off out of their space. I've had that happen a couple of times with my own, when some dog has come up to them and kicked off. It's their fault for coming up like that so they get told off quite succinctly, and most owners have fully accepted that. That's just normal dog behaviour. It doesn't need muzzling any more than a horse needs to have its legs tied for kicking when someone comes screaming up like a retard and spooking it.

If it's kids you're worried about, be a proper parent and teach them not to act like ***** around animals. They learn responsibility, and you don't then put an animal in a situation where it can be killed for doing exactly what it's supposed to.
Rule number one is to always ask before approaching someone else's dog. If you don't do that, or utterly ignore them, you deserve everything you get and shouldn't be allowed outside without your handler's supervision.
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I think your confusing that not all dog owners are equal.

You sound like a responsible dog owner. You appreciate what they are and obviously attention is required in handling them and how you treat them.

The difference between you and someone who is breeding killer dogs who are extremely violent even towards their own guests or trades people visiting their home is vast.

You are assuming every dog owner is like you. It works both ways some kids and parents shouldn't be allowed in public and the same thing for some dogs and their owners.

You get literally good and bad people in every walk of life.

You must know by now that when you go to your local doctors surgery your praying you don't get the crap GP but the good one.

You will also surely notice it with different parents and kids some are well behaved and actually listen whilst others you can tell them not to do something and they will literally just keep on doing it even with repeated instructions not to do it.
 
Electric cattle prod should do the trick :D

I've got a bullmastiff, I've trained her not to jump up at people and she's got to be the dumbest dog I've ever had. She won't even fetch a stick or a ball lol
 
EVH said:
Train your kids to like dogs. Problem solved.
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Whenever my daughter has friends round you can always tell who are scared. Which is exactly what the dogs sees so they just want to jump up and comfort them. Friends that come round who have dogs themselves is a total non event.
 
koooowweeee said:
Electric cattle prod should do the trick :D

I've got a bullmastiff, I've trained her not to jump up at people and she's got to be the dumbest dog I've ever had. She won't even fetch a stick or a ball lol
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I know, a lot of people put zero effort in to training their dog and just claim it can't be trained..

Our Cocker is as dumb as you get as well yet we've also managed to not only train him not to jump up, but also wait for an invitation before taking anything from a person.. On top of that we put in a lot of effort to get him through to Gold on the KC Good Citizen scheme. He's still a dog and we haven't gone down the arduous path of getting him to not chase squirrels or foraging, but I'm sure we could if that was needed..

adam cool dude said:
Whenever my daughter has friends round you can always tell who are scared. Which is exactly what the dogs sees so they just want to jump up and comfort them. Friends that come round who have dogs themselves is a total non event.
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We find a lot of people wary of the dog, it doesn't help that he barks if any stranger enters the house, however if we accept a person in, he'll stop barking, but some of my daughters friends hear the bark and are unbelievably weary of him (Can't blame them).. Since he's actually very approachable (he won't jump on them, he'll wait for them to come to him) they normally relax and you find them spending lots of time petting him which he loves, so they definitely leave with a better impression of dogs then they came in with..
 
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Demon said:
I know, a lot of people put zero effort in to training their dog and just claim it can't be trained..

Our Cocker is as dumb as you get as well yet we've also managed to not only train him not to jump up, but also wait for an invitation before taking anything from a person.. On top of that we put in a lot of effort to get him through to Gold on the KC Good Citizen scheme. He's still a dog and we haven't gone down the arduous path of getting him to not chase squirrels or foraging, but I'm sure we could if that was needed..


We find a lot of people wary of the dog, it doesn't help that he barks if any stranger enters the house, however if we accept a person in, he'll stop barking, but some of my daughters friends hear the bark and are unbelievably weary of him (Can't blame them).. Since he's actually very approachable (he won't jump on them, he'll wait for them to come to him) they normally relax and you find them spending lots of time petting him which he loves, so they definitely leave with a better impression of dogs then they came in with..
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Things like cocker and bull mastiff are not the ones you need to worry about. It's all the small breeds you need to worry about!
 
adam cool dude said:
Things like cocker and bull mastiff are not the ones you need to worry about. It's all the small breeds you need to worry about!
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I agree.

I think it's because so many people pick up and carry the smaller dog breeds around, and it does them no favours.

I've seen plenty of aggressive dogs being walked, but the larger breeds have muzzles. The small ones are free to bark, growl, snap and bite at whoever they want
 
Psycho Sonny said:
I think your confusing that not all dog owners are equal.
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Not at all. There are plenty of owners on whom I've kicked off for their lack of responsibility, often when I've been out with my family and their dogs have misbehaved around us. Last one was a woman 'walking' her two large dogs... which was more like letting them run 600yds ahead, round the corner and over the hill while she bimbled around more concerned with her mobile phone call. It really shuts someone up when you come up behind them, both their dogs in hand, and tear them off a strip at top volume.

Psycho Sonny said:
The difference between you and someone who is breeding killer dogs who are extremely violent even towards their own guests or trades people visiting their home is vast.
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In this case HB is not breeding killer dogs, though. Nor is he doing anything wrong. He's effectively minding his own business.
Interesting that you say (and I paraphrase) "even those visiting their home", when that's where dogs tend to be the most territorial, though.

Psycho Sonny said:
You are assuming every dog owner is like you. It works both ways some kids and parents shouldn't be allowed in public and the same thing for some dogs and their owners.
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For the purposes of this argument I have to assume that, yes, because this particular point is about situations where responsible owners are behaving as such.
We're now looking at a pretty heavily self-regulating owner, who is still being badgered by blinded affirmations that any biting dogs should be muzzled, while completely ignoring why that often isn't the best idea and how in many cases it can make the situation worse.
 
ttaskmaster said:
In this case HB is not breeding killer dogs, though. Nor is he doing anything wrong. He's effectively minding his own business.
We're now looking at a pretty heavily self-regulating owner, who is still being badgered by blinded affirmations that any biting dogs should be muzzled, while completely ignoring why that often isn't the best idea and how in many cases it can make the situation worse.
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If you need to put a sign on your dog saying "I NEED SPACE" and yelling at other owners to keep their distance has nothing to do with his belief his dog might get attacked, its a sign he doesn't trust his dog around other animals, in which case he should muzzle the dog in public, it's his responsibility to ensure his dog is under control, that does not mean on a lead, it means does not attack another person or animal, and if he could trust his dog to do that, why would he need a sign, walk the other way and yell at other owners?

I must be getting the wrong end of the stick, I am OK with letting a dog defend itself, but if you can't trust your dog around innocent/friendly dogs, it's surely your responsibility to muzzle it..
 
Demon said:
If you need to put a sign on your dog saying "I NEED SPACE" and yelling at other owners to keep their distance has nothing to do with his belief his dog might get attacked, its a sign he doesn't trust his dog around other animals, in which case he should muzzle the dog in public
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Gonna stop you right there...
Firstly, I'd say it's more a sign that he doesn't trust other owners and their animals around his dog.

Secondly, there are plenty of non-violent reasons why a dog might need space. The dog might be sick, deaf, blind, nervous, or just simply just in training, none of which preclude being taken out for walks in public areas, and some of which actually necessitate it.
In training is a difficult one, as you need to get your dog out in those situations, but only the ones for which they are ready. Walking past other leashed dogs is one thing, but being on a lead and unable to escape from unleashed over-excited dogs that come bounding over is very different - This is why you give yours a brightly coloured coat with words on and ask others to keep theirs away.

All of our dogs are rescues. One in particular had been beaten by a previous owner and had a general distrust of humans, so she needed space. If someone came dashing to her in an agitated manner, she'd get scared and bolt. She needed space, so she could learn to overcome it on her own terms, rather than having it thrust in her face because the other party felt entitled to do whatever it damn well liked.
She would often get boy dogs coming up to her, because she's a girl and they want to shag her. Perfectly natural for them, but she still doesn't want it and would snap at any boy she didn't want sticking it's nose up her backside. Again perfectly natural and any half-sensible owner would expect this... yet you would have her muzzled?
Putting a muzzle on her would have made her panic before we even got her out of the house, and when faced with unwanted attention she'd have utterly flipped out. As an abused dog, she needed confident encourangement, not dominant correction.

With the poster above, it's nothing to do with his belief about his dog either attacking or being attacked. It's about knowing what situations his dog doesn't like being put in, and asking you to not create such a situation. That space is part of what gives the owner control over his dog. By letting your dog do whatever it wants, you're taking an element of that control away from him...

Demon said:
I must be getting the wrong end of the stick, I am OK with letting a dog defend itself, but if you can't trust your dog around innocent/friendly dogs, it's surely your responsibility to muzzle it..
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Unlike humans, dogs already have a pretty good grasp of their own body language.
You might think the other dog is innocent, but your own dog still doesn't want it coming near him and it has every right to not want that. Your job is to recognise this and stop that from happening. Part of that is putting a big clear sign on the dog itself, and it's the responsibility of other dogs' owners to recognise this and control their own dogs... and since we're on the subject, this also means they should similarly control their own children and control themselves.
 
ttaskmaster said:
Gonna stop you right there...
Firstly, I'd say it's more a sign that he doesn't trust other owners and their animals around his dog.

Secondly, there are plenty of non-violent reasons why a dog might need space. The dog might be sick, deaf, blind, nervous, or just simply just in training, none of which preclude being taken out for walks in public areas, and some of which actually necessitate it.
In training is a difficult one, as you need to get your dog out in those situations, but only the ones for which they are ready. Walking past other leashed dogs is one thing, but being on a lead and unable to escape from unleashed over-excited dogs that come bounding over is very different - This is why you give yours a brightly coloured coat with words on and ask others to keep theirs away.

All of our dogs are rescues. One in particular had been beaten by a previous owner and had a general distrust of humans, so she needed space. If someone came dashing to her in an agitated manner, she'd get scared and bolt. She needed space, so she could learn to overcome it on her own terms, rather than having it thrust in her face because the other party felt entitled to do whatever it damn well liked.
She would often get boy dogs coming up to her, because she's a girl and they want to shag her. Perfectly natural for them, but she still doesn't want it and would snap at any boy she didn't want sticking it's nose up her backside. Again perfectly natural and any half-sensible owner would expect this... yet you would have her muzzled?
Putting a muzzle on her would have made her panic before we even got her out of the house, and when faced with unwanted attention she'd have utterly flipped out. As an abused dog, she needed confident encourangement, not dominant correction.

With the poster above, it's nothing to do with his belief about his dog either attacking or being attacked. It's about knowing what situations his dog doesn't like being put in, and asking you to not create such a situation. That space is part of what gives the owner control over his dog. By letting your dog do whatever it wants, you're taking an element of that control away from him...


Unlike humans, dogs already have a pretty good grasp of their own body language.
You might think the other dog is innocent, but your own dog still doesn't want it coming near him and it has every right to not want that. Your job is to recognise this and stop that from happening. Part of that is putting a big clear sign on the dog itself, and it's the responsibility of other dogs' owners to recognise this and control their own dogs... and since we're on the subject, this also means they should similarly control their own children and control themselves.
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I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I'm very sympathetic to dogs with issues, we have 6 rescue dogs with severe issues near us, including a GSD that also 'needs space'.. and we get on well with the owners because we ensure we do what's best for those dogs and don't mind helping.. they've even helped with ours getting over a fear of larger dogs.

In this case all I find at odds is the opening statement "if I see other dogs, I even yell to those who have dogs off lead, i.e. "Please keep your distance" - If they ignore that, it's on them." that applies to all dogs, friendly or not, well behaved or not.. If I truly was that worried about my dogs reaction to not just these hypothetical aggressive and badly behaved dogs, but also to any dog that wandered by, I'd most certainly muzzle the dog, which is not always a problem BTW, some of the rescue dogs near us are muzzled exactly because of this and speaking with the owners they have no issues with it.. Hell our neighbours reasonably well behaved lurcher is muzzled in public because lurchers are not very good at differentiating small dogs from rabbits and they had one small near miss and so responsibly decided to muzzle the dog, it seems perfectly fine with it..

It's more this follow up I think rams home that not all is well:
"however if someone continues to approach me despite me asking/warning them not too, then they have more to worry about than my GSD."
So anyone they don't like the look of should be very worried by not only their GSD but them.. This is not a balanced reaction..

Of course I would not let any dog attack my dog either, who the hell would, we'd all do our best to sort things out and do whatever was necessary, but I don't go around forcing the situation by unreasonably expecting all dogs to be on a lead near mine when I'm in a public area that does not demand that..

I'm OK just agreeing to disagree on the subject, I think we all have the dogs welfare at heart and surely it's OK if I'd choose to muzzle my dog in a similar situation in the same way it's OK if I don't crate my dog etc.. At least in this thread we have got people that really care for their dogs, the same cannot be said for a lot of owners.
 
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Demon said:
If I truly was that worried about my dogs reaction to not just these hypothetical aggressive and badly behaved dogs, but also to any dog that wandered by, I'd most certainly muzzle the dog, which is not always a problem BTW, some of the rescue dogs near us are muzzled exactly because of this and speaking with the owners they have no issues with it..
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No, muzzling isn't always a problem and some dogs are okay with it, but it's more often not the best solution, either - My issue is people resorting to it in a casual throwaway fashion, as was used above. Far better to resolve the behavioural issues that make the dog bite in the first place.
Most of the time people exhibit sufficient intelligence to read a warning jacket and simply keep their distance, though.

Demon said:
It's more this follow up I think rams home that not all is well:
"however if someone continues to approach me despite me asking/warning them not too, then they have more to worry about than my GSD."
So anyone they don't like the look of should be very worried by not only their GSD but them.. This is not a balanced reaction..
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What's wrong with that?
A person you don't know, handling a large GSD, actually takes time to ask you to keep your distance. Why would you then deliberately ignore them?

Let's reverse the situation - Say I have a Labrador (which I do) and she's a bouncy, happy little thing. She's off lead, but always responds instantly to recall, spins on a dime in fact and always comes straight back... except this one time she gets a bit too far away from me and spots your dog. You shout a warning to me, but it's too late - My lovely Lab is bounding over to say hello but your dog, for whatever reason, just isn't in the mood today. Your dog yaps at mine, mine WHOOFFs back, yours has a little snap. I get there just in time to recover my dog, but in teh process yours nips my hand.
Your dog has just bitten me. Your dog is now a dangerous animal and will end up being put to death, because it bit me. It's my fault this happened, but your dog must now pay with its life for my actions.

Absolute worst case scenario, but it does happen. That is why owners like myself and Honey are so keen on getting in peoples' faces before our dogs can - Dealing with me, you'll get a dressing down and, if you really push the issue, a serious hiding... but my dog will not have to die for someone else's self-entitled attitude.

This reminds me of a guy who always caught the same Tube as me in London - He never took a seat but instead stood his whole journey in the space by the doors, staring down at knee level and just kept clearly saying, "Don't bump into me, please" when anyone came near him. I never saw a single person bump into him and never overheard anyone even pass comment.
I also never knew why he was asking, but presumably there was good reason.
This situation is no different, so why would people assume they know dogs better than their own handler?

Demon said:
but I do go around forcing the situation by unreasonably expecting all dogs to be on a lead near mine when I'm in a public area that does not demand that..
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Sorry, slight confusion on this point - You do, or you don't force this?
Either way, your dog should be under your control, lead if necessary, or other means if they're that well behaved.
You might be a dog person, but my dog isn't a people person and neither am I. We're kind enough to warn you of this fact, so be kind enough to repect it and give us space.
 
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