That's the 8th time you've posted in this thread, and still without anything intelligible.
Doubling up speaker cable, improvement I've noticed
- Thread starter JasonM
- Start date
That's the 8th time you've posted in this thread, and still without anything intelligible.
We've got something in common then.
At least I'm not going into other people's thread just to provoke trouble, because that's exactly what your doing here.
You won't find me quoting people with just
sign.But you keep saying funny absurd stuff.At least I'm not going into other people's thread just to provoke trouble, because that's exactly what your doing here.
You won't find me quoting people with just
Soldato
- Joined
- 17 Aug 2003
- Posts
- 20,160
- Location
- Woburn Sand Dunes
Strawman, I never said any of that did I? Here's what i actually said back on the 12th of April:
And we've since had nothing concrete, just your promise that it really really does sound more better.
Jesus, here's me running DTA, monitors, a custom built 10" subwoofer, cat5 speaker cabling I made myself on my pc setup and you're trying to lecture me about audio when i was one of the guys who didnt completely dismiss you at first chance.
Last edited:
OK, so I gave you guys 25 mins of my time to test some of this. Not the double cable thing, but changes in cable.
I have a set of Edifier R1600T active speakers with standard cable to connect them (right speaker has the amp in it, left is passive), including the 3.5mm to RCA cable supplied with the speakers themselves. The speaker wire is clearly aluminium or something, very thin, I've never re-terminated it or anything like that. Not something I would ever have used if it didn't come with the speakers. The 3.5mm to RCA cable supplied, for what it's worth, is also pretty cheap.
I've always been pretty happy with these speakers, although they do have a very bass-heavy characteristic, probably makes them good for gaming (what I mostly use them for) but less good for faithful music reproduction I suppose. I do have other equipment (Cambridge Audio amp and Tannoy speakers) which is way more balanced, dynamic and just better in most ways, so I do have some idea of what to listen for although none of my stuff is 'HiFi' by today's standards I guess.
I replaced the speaker cable with some of this stuff. It seems to be about the limit of what will fit into the speaker terminals, is much heavier gauge, different material, objectively 'better' in electrical terms. Is this a comparable to test the OP's claims? Probably not, but it's on similar lines so perhaps we can prove or disprove something.
Then, I streamed HiFi quality music from Tidal (Dire Straits - Sultans of Swing) via a good DAC (Cambridge Audio Dacmagic XS) into the speakers with both the original wire, then alternating to the new wire. I did this a few times, looped through the song a few times to try and listen for the same sections and make a comparison. I also worked through muting left and right channels in turn to get an understanding for each speaker.
I have made upgrades in the past that were immediately noticeable. One of those was the DAC I mentioned above. You can straight away tell as the music opens up, gains clarity, the bass becomes controlled etc. versus a standard DAC in a computer. Big difference.
With this change, it was more subtle. Hard to believe, given that the cables are so different and one is clearly much 'superior'. However, there is a difference. A few in fact. One thing I noticed was that the cymbal crashes in parts of the track become more distinct from one another. I could more easily separate not the initial hit, but the ringing out of the previous hit to the next. Subtle, but seemed to be there. The bass was also less boomy and rounded although still lacked control to be honest. I think that's a characteristic of these speakers. I also compared the left speaker (being fed by the cable) to the right (internally wired). With the new cable, they sound more or less the same musically, with the old cable I notice some of the deficiencies I mentioned above in the left speaker only. One other side effect seemed to be that the volume in the left speaker was louder than the right with the new cable only. I don't know why that would be, but it actually seemed to introduce some imbalance towards the left.
Just to round the test off and to check the source was good, I plugged my headphones (Philips Fidelio X2HR) back into the source and they sounded great. About 10x better than these speakers by the way.
So, in summary, there were improvements in perceived quality with a better cable, but it introduced an imbalance as well in my particular setup. I would assume the speakers are tested and setup to work with the cabling provided.
Finally, everything I said was subjective and specific to me and your mileage may vary. I acknowledge I could be subject to the placebo effect as this was not a blind test in any way and I am indeed a human. To answer all of this properly, objective measurements must be taken. So basically what I say is worthless and you should test yourself or trust an objective testing approach that someone else may have equipment to perform. However, I can recommend the Dire Straits album, there's some great guitar playing and it seems to have been recorded very well.
I have a set of Edifier R1600T active speakers with standard cable to connect them (right speaker has the amp in it, left is passive), including the 3.5mm to RCA cable supplied with the speakers themselves. The speaker wire is clearly aluminium or something, very thin, I've never re-terminated it or anything like that. Not something I would ever have used if it didn't come with the speakers. The 3.5mm to RCA cable supplied, for what it's worth, is also pretty cheap.
I've always been pretty happy with these speakers, although they do have a very bass-heavy characteristic, probably makes them good for gaming (what I mostly use them for) but less good for faithful music reproduction I suppose. I do have other equipment (Cambridge Audio amp and Tannoy speakers) which is way more balanced, dynamic and just better in most ways, so I do have some idea of what to listen for although none of my stuff is 'HiFi' by today's standards I guess.
I replaced the speaker cable with some of this stuff. It seems to be about the limit of what will fit into the speaker terminals, is much heavier gauge, different material, objectively 'better' in electrical terms. Is this a comparable to test the OP's claims? Probably not, but it's on similar lines so perhaps we can prove or disprove something.
Then, I streamed HiFi quality music from Tidal (Dire Straits - Sultans of Swing) via a good DAC (Cambridge Audio Dacmagic XS) into the speakers with both the original wire, then alternating to the new wire. I did this a few times, looped through the song a few times to try and listen for the same sections and make a comparison. I also worked through muting left and right channels in turn to get an understanding for each speaker.
I have made upgrades in the past that were immediately noticeable. One of those was the DAC I mentioned above. You can straight away tell as the music opens up, gains clarity, the bass becomes controlled etc. versus a standard DAC in a computer. Big difference.
With this change, it was more subtle. Hard to believe, given that the cables are so different and one is clearly much 'superior'. However, there is a difference. A few in fact. One thing I noticed was that the cymbal crashes in parts of the track become more distinct from one another. I could more easily separate not the initial hit, but the ringing out of the previous hit to the next. Subtle, but seemed to be there. The bass was also less boomy and rounded although still lacked control to be honest. I think that's a characteristic of these speakers. I also compared the left speaker (being fed by the cable) to the right (internally wired). With the new cable, they sound more or less the same musically, with the old cable I notice some of the deficiencies I mentioned above in the left speaker only. One other side effect seemed to be that the volume in the left speaker was louder than the right with the new cable only. I don't know why that would be, but it actually seemed to introduce some imbalance towards the left.
Just to round the test off and to check the source was good, I plugged my headphones (Philips Fidelio X2HR) back into the source and they sounded great. About 10x better than these speakers by the way.
So, in summary, there were improvements in perceived quality with a better cable, but it introduced an imbalance as well in my particular setup. I would assume the speakers are tested and setup to work with the cabling provided.
Finally, everything I said was subjective and specific to me and your mileage may vary. I acknowledge I could be subject to the placebo effect as this was not a blind test in any way and I am indeed a human. To answer all of this properly, objective measurements must be taken. So basically what I say is worthless and you should test yourself or trust an objective testing approach that someone else may have equipment to perform. However, I can recommend the Dire Straits album, there's some great guitar playing and it seems to have been recorded very well.
Gearhead guitarists who buy or read "Guitarist Magazine" are the one of the easiest markets to sell to. To a man, they're all looking for something they can buy that they think makes them sound better. Nobody else can hear it and they don't care.
I do it myself. I put a Fender Custom Shop pickup in one of my basses quite recently and it sounds absolutely lovely. Would anyone be able to tell the difference between that and a stock US pickup? Unbloody likely. In a band situation? Absolutely no chance. I'm still glad I did it though as I know how nice it sounds. This is with something that does have an empirical, verifiable effect. It produces more low mids and more rounded treble. It's still barely apparent to the human ear, and extremely unlikely for anyone unfamiliar with both pickups to be able to tell the difference. Interconnects do not do this. They either work or don't. Same with speaker cables. They'll either power the full response of the speaker, or if pushed too hard, they start to heat and increase resistance, that happens very quickly and is something you would notice as your speakers would stop working. There's no wires or cables or interconnects that favour or don't different frequencies because that's no how the science works. It's a strong electrical signal. It's either complete or it's very noticeably degraded or missing. The electrons flow or they don't.
I use Van Damme cable for my amp interconnects, with Neutrik Speakon connectors. I like VD cable. It feels nice and is rugged. I don't use it because it sounds better than any other copper wire fat enough because it can't.
Last edited:
James, I've had what appeared half the board against me, so you can understand I've got a bit defensive. Reading your first post, I do agree you were one of the few that did not dismiss my first post, so thank you for that.
Re testing I have no possible way of testing these difference, I don't own a scope or anything like this.
Soldato
- Joined
- 11 May 2007
- Posts
- 9,087
- Location
- Surrey
Replace 'interconnects' with 'Jesus' and you'll have exactly the same type of argument on your hands. It's your BELIEF. You have no empirical proof. That's why people are getting arsey.
Inogen, thanks for your response and explanation.
The reason I quoted the Guitarist Magazine link I was trying to find something that backed up the differences I noticed. I do agree these magazines also are primary trying to sell products.
I believe you have tried different different interconnects and you can't hear a difference, I respect also your knowledgeable on this subject, and you've spent many hours testing and listening to various equipment over the years.
The thing is I can hear the difference between interconnects, the Van Damme Silver if I switch this on my main system, most people would notice a difference in under 5 seconds.
I'm honestly not trying to be confrontational, I believe your correct, but how does this explain the differences I've hearing.
What are the other interconnects you're A/Bing with? If they're decent copper and not in some way broken, you won't hear a difference with them and the VD. You won't because there literally and categorically will not be one.
Well firstly, well done and thank you. You took some time to actually test this. So what your describing is exactly what my original thread was about.
The louder volume your referring to is due to reduced cable resistance.
I run some Yamaha speakers, that are better speakers constructed then your Edifier speakers, plus imagine on both speakers, and you would notice even more improvement.
For a moment put yourself in my position. Imagine I never created this thread, instead you made the thread yourself telling people your thoughts on it. Then most of the board lined up to attack you, or say you can't hear these differences - can you understand why I got so defensive.
Now aren't you graceful for my thread, because you have learnt that cable can make a difference. One day you might have some speakers that are passive on both sides, you can remember what happened here, and you can ensure you have better speaker cable to bring out these improvement.
But again really grateful, as your the only person that actually tested this.
Inogen, I've got access to maybe 10 different makes of RCA interconnects. I've got Belkin, Maplins, RS spares, generic stuff that's given away, then I've interconnects made from Van Damme XKE microphone cable, also as mentioned Van Damme Lo-Cap 55.
There is even a difference between the XKE and the Lo-Cap 55 when used as an interconnect. The Lo-Cap 55 has more refinement in top frequencies.
To prove I do have these cables, here is a small sample of some of my cables.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=VDhvYS1vY0d2MmR2emtfSllYcXVkV1RJSndNdTRB
If you can hear a difference between two sets of speaker cables there are 3 possible reasons.
1) Placebo.
2) One set is either damaged or of the wrong gauge for either the length or for the current being drawn.
3) There's some other physical problem like oxidation or galvanisation where you connect the amp to the cable which is being disturbed when you disconnect and reconnect the cables.
It is absolutely and categorically not because different wires make anything sound different, favour or round off different frequencies etc. There is absolutely and categorically ZERO scientific evidence that they do other than people saying they do (see reason 1) They either work properly or they don't (see reasons 2&3). Same goes for interconnects.
Placebo is a very strong phenomenon. You may even find that your ear and brain act differently due to your expectation resulting a real change in perception.
Why not do a test with your interconnects? Ask someone else to change them and see if you can guess which ones are which. If you can genuinely find one set that you can tell the difference from the others, it'll be because it's damaged. You'd probably be able to tell that with a multimeter.
1) Placebo.
2) One set is either damaged or of the wrong gauge for either the length or for the current being drawn.
3) There's some other physical problem like oxidation or galvanisation where you connect the amp to the cable which is being disturbed when you disconnect and reconnect the cables.
It is absolutely and categorically not because different wires make anything sound different, favour or round off different frequencies etc. There is absolutely and categorically ZERO scientific evidence that they do other than people saying they do (see reason 1) They either work properly or they don't (see reasons 2&3). Same goes for interconnects.
Placebo is a very strong phenomenon. You may even find that your ear and brain act differently due to your expectation resulting a real change in perception.
Why not do a test with your interconnects? Ask someone else to change them and see if you can guess which ones are which. If you can genuinely find one set that you can tell the difference from the others, it'll be because it's damaged. You'd probably be able to tell that with a multimeter.
Last edited:
My post was selectively quoted, as I did acknowledge that placebo may well be the cause of the changes I appeared to hear. As said, objective measurement is the only way to put it to bed. We should at least acknowledge that, given the placebo effect, it's entirely possible that both JasonM and I can hear a difference in sound and have nothing but good faith and intentions in trying to be as honest as we can about what we hear, even if there could be no measurable sonic difference. It would be wise to acknowledge this before trying to argue (a pointless and often unproductive thing online) that one side of the other is definitely right, without objective evidence.
In my case as tested above, I also believe that since the cables are so different in composition it is entirely possible that this may affect sound reproduction in some way. My personal belief is that this is unlikely to be significant or audible if you've got 'good enough' cables, and the bar is probably pretty low for that. Again, no evidence, but from my experience (I do have a separates system I've used with various cables as well) I've never been able to tell apart 'good enough' from 'expensive' cables. However, would that change if I moved the bottleneck to have perhaps a better amp or speakers? I don't know.
What is strange is that this myth and clearly, in some cases, snake oil industry still exists in 2021. You'd think enough testing and understanding was now available to positively debunk or confirm the impact of cables in a system. A community such as this one is usually pretty good in understanding testing and benchmarking. I don't know why this uncertainty persists. Whilst how we perceive sound is very complex, and subjective preferences clearly cannot be measured, at least things like frequency response can, so you'd think that someone could prove or disprove many of these persistent myths. We need an audio mythbuster.
In my case as tested above, I also believe that since the cables are so different in composition it is entirely possible that this may affect sound reproduction in some way. My personal belief is that this is unlikely to be significant or audible if you've got 'good enough' cables, and the bar is probably pretty low for that. Again, no evidence, but from my experience (I do have a separates system I've used with various cables as well) I've never been able to tell apart 'good enough' from 'expensive' cables. However, would that change if I moved the bottleneck to have perhaps a better amp or speakers? I don't know.
What is strange is that this myth and clearly, in some cases, snake oil industry still exists in 2021. You'd think enough testing and understanding was now available to positively debunk or confirm the impact of cables in a system. A community such as this one is usually pretty good in understanding testing and benchmarking. I don't know why this uncertainty persists. Whilst how we perceive sound is very complex, and subjective preferences clearly cannot be measured, at least things like frequency response can, so you'd think that someone could prove or disprove many of these persistent myths. We need an audio mythbuster.
Yeah, I agree with this sentiment, however, given that the science behind how loud speakers and electrical conduction work are perfectly well understood and leave no uncertainty regarding the subject at hand, it would rather be up to someone to prove that facets of modern physics theory are wrong, rather than up to anyone to prove they're right.
It's rather like Russell's teapot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
There is no damage on these cables, I sometime clean connections up with isopropyl alcohol.
There is differences in these cables that I've hearing, the worst cable in that photo is the Belkin is has that that much resistance it lowers signal into an amp reducing volume.
Going back to the Van Damm Silver series, if there is no differences why do they make three different
versions. The following is from their website.
Lo-Cap 55p/F per meter - Provides a gentle high frequency roll off, ideal for humbucking pickups.
Flat-Cap 90p/F per meter - Provides average high frequency roll off, for use with bass guitar and keyboards.
Hi-Cap 125 p/F per meter - Provides a steeper high frequency roll off, ideal for single-coil pickups.
So if there are no differences in cables why are Van Damme making these different cables?
Now as it happens I found this video on electric guitar cable length. I've linked the video on the following point.
"As a cable gets longer we introduce more capacitive to the system, and our frequency response goes down" - so their saying cable capacitance does effect cable, and ties in exactly with what Van Damm are saying above.
https://youtu.be/klZLWZLBCN4?t=183
There is differences in these cables that I've hearing, the worst cable in that photo is the Belkin is has that that much resistance it lowers signal into an amp reducing volume.
Going back to the Van Damm Silver series, if there is no differences why do they make three different
versions. The following is from their website.
Lo-Cap 55p/F per meter - Provides a gentle high frequency roll off, ideal for humbucking pickups.
Flat-Cap 90p/F per meter - Provides average high frequency roll off, for use with bass guitar and keyboards.
Hi-Cap 125 p/F per meter - Provides a steeper high frequency roll off, ideal for single-coil pickups.
So if there are no differences in cables why are Van Damme making these different cables?
Now as it happens I found this video on electric guitar cable length. I've linked the video on the following point.
"As a cable gets longer we introduce more capacitive to the system, and our frequency response goes down" - so their saying cable capacitance does effect cable, and ties in exactly with what Van Damm are saying above.
https://youtu.be/klZLWZLBCN4?t=183
They're making 3 cables because they hope they'll sell more cable that way.
And yes, increased length decreases capacitance and overall resistance which degrades the signal. What's being compared there is physically unsuitable cable vs cable suitable for application. With instrument cable it's a very low powered signal to begin with and instrument cables are relatively (very) thin compared with high power amp > speaker cables as they need to be far more flexible. I've heard about them melting when being wrongly used to connect amplifiers to speakers. They do work though, perfectly well (I've used them for that back in the day when I didn't know any better and they worked fine), until they don't.
And I'm afraid, that Belkin interconnect just sounds like it's a POS. That doesn't mean your VD one is magic.
Last edited:
Do you believe those Van Damme cables have different capacitance?
Or do you believe those cables are identical, and they just print different numbers on the sides of them?