DRS the new Marmite thread.

arknor said:
this is what i meant.. just because your the faster car doesnt mean you will pull away either you can use the DRS to improve laptime and keep up if the guy is only a few tenths faster and likely still be within enough to get a pass from the DRS if its a silly long zone like canada
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Surely in the scenario you talk about happening, Canada was the best DRS zone to stop it happening, you get passed in the first zone and extend the lead in the 2nd.

Canada was the best DRS zone yet for making sure after a DRS pass the car couldn't come back at you?
 
DRS removes the requirement to be the best man/machine combo for an overtake to occur, or rather it makes the margin to stay in front to be much larger than it was before ... certainly larger than the margin difference between the top teams
 
dannyjo22 said:
Surely in the scenario you talk about happening, Canada was the best DRS zone to stop it happening, you get passed in the first zone and extend the lead in the 2nd.

Canada was the best DRS zone yet for making sure after a DRS pass the car couldn't come back at you?
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so you dont want racing? just the faster car to be allowed to get infront? wasnt this why refueling was banned? so cars had to race each other and not just go time attack on whatever fuel stratergy they wanted?

in my mind formula one shouldnt be about the fastest driver beeing given whatever gimmicks to allow them to easily pass and pull away.

drivers should show off there racecraft battling for position , i dont mind DRS aslong as its not ridiculous but i'd prefer a better kers system instead atleast that way you can use kers defensively where as with DRS you basicly have no control over anything and just have to let it happen.

i guess thats what the FIA wants though seeing as they are punishing everyone for trying to actually race wheel to wheel i bet some people at the FIA would be happy if the only overtakes were in DRS zones as they are "safe" overtakes they have some control over
 
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arknor said:
so you dont want racing? just the faster car to be allowed to get infront? wasnt this why refueling was banned? so cars had to race each other and not just go time attack on whatever fuel stratergy they wanted?
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Exactly.

What could be more enjoyable than watching a car overtake on the straight then disappear into the distance? /sarcasm
 
Ok, arknor, we appear to all be going round in circles.

Lay out, simply, in a few lines EXACTLY the regulations you would like to see in F1. KERS, no KERS, DRS, no DRS, refueling, etc etc?
 
i wont lay out anythingh for you as you clearly dont read what people type , somewhere between you looking at the posts and the information reaching your brain it gets translated into whatever you want someone to have posted.

can you stop following me around the forum trolling my posts and making out i said things i clearly did not...
 
arknor said:
i wont lay out anythingh for you as you clearly dont read what people type , somewhere between you looking at the posts and the information reaching your brain it gets translated into whatever you want someone to have posted.

can you stop following me around the forum trolling my posts and making out i said things i clearly did not...
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:confused:

That was a genuine 'clean slate', start from the top, give us your straight opinion offer...
 
ok scrap DRS

make kers twice as powerful with twice as large a capacity on the battery.
instead of it reseting every lap have it reset every 3laps or so instead so someone whos beeing forced to use it to stay ahead will eventually run out and have to do a lap or two before his kers charges again.
a faster chasing car should be able to put the car hes chasing under enough pressure that its forced to use kers while he himself having the faster cars wont need it at this point.
it will be like DRS is now in a sense but someone can defend against it with their own kers for aslong as they can make it last and the final overtake wont seem to impossible to defend against because the car being overtaken atleast had a sporting chance.

with how kers is now its not really helping overtaking because the person infront always has his kers when the person behind does which means its just like the F-duct great if everyone else doesnt have it but when everyone does have it whats the point.
 
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arknor said:
so you dont want racing? just the faster car to be allowed to get infront? wasnt this why refueling was banned? so cars had to race each other and not just go time attack on whatever fuel stratergy they wanted?
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No you said you didn't want a scenario where you could wait and pass on the last lap because if you passed earlier someone could DRS you right back. You said Canada shouldn't have such large DRS zones.

Where in fact Canada had the best DRS to prevent the very thing you are worried about. You could pass in the first DRS zone and pull out a gap in the 2nd so the car behind couldn't DRS you back.

Now you're saying I just want the faster car infront, I said nothing of the sort. One minute you are saying people will wait so they don't get repassed and then when I said canada stops that you say great so the faster car gets passed and the slower car can't come back at them?

What exactly do you want?

Cars to repass each other or not? If not then Canada had a great DRS zone.
 
i want fair racing and both drivers to have a chance read me above post, imo DRS isnt needed and we should be focusing more on kers
 
I read somewhere on F1 technical I think it was that they have been struggling to safely get more energy into the kers and certainly struggling to get more power without running a system that could end up hurting someone.

I think it's fairly dangerous to be pushing the limits of Kers in the F1 environment.
 
DRS is epically rubbish and Canada was the worst yet, only distracted by the rain having it off for a large part of the race. The fact that you could use it to pass on the first straight and then pull away on the second, where without it the car behind would have gotten the tow on either straight, not both on the first and second straight even if they were ahead.

Meh, as said Kers is better as both cars have it and can use it when they want, thats the problem with DRS, its not equal at all at any stage. A rule needs to be established to bring back stronger slip streaming, everyone for years has been screwing up rear exhaust so badly slip streaming became less possible. The only way DRS should stay is if, and only if everyone can use it whenever they want, or the second you are past a car its disabled and the over taken car then has it enabled themselves.

Kers a couple years ago when it was a choice to have it or not, and some cars didn't have it, was silly, same rule, all cars, fairness, DRS just fails in every sense of trying to make a fair race.

Theres barely been a single race so far(i can't remember each one) that has had DRS as they wanted it, IE a boost to get close to an overtake, but not DO the overtake. At Canada, it did the overtake, simple as that, at another couple tracks all the overtaking was done under DRS and with no defence at all, at a couple other tracks DRS has been in a stupid place and offered zero advantage.

Not even 1/4 of the races have had DRS working as advertised, as it was designed, therefore it should be scraped. Everyone involved said the whole time, DRS is supposed to get you up to the car infront, but thats it, get you along side then let driving do the rest, this simply hasn't happened. Utter failure frankly, no more or less.

This is the problem its not about if it makes races more or less interesting, its not about it working too well, it was designed with one intention it is NOT forfilling that intention at all, therefore, it should go.
 
I see where you are coming from.

However, KERS has never really been a forefront of overtaking technology. Its been focused more towards being green. I do agree the limited use they have at the moment could do with being increased. 80BHP in cars with 750bhp is not much.

The issue however, with the 3 lap thing, is that the button then does become an 'overtake' button. To make it only work on 1/3 of the laps, it has to offer a significant advantage. As a rule of thumb, I would assume a KERS available 1/3 of the time would be 3x as powerfull. What you then end up with is something that is assumed to be an 'overtake' button.

A1GP ran with this, only the cars were limited to the number of button presses per race. It was called the 'overtake' or 'push to pass' button, and the end result was people pressing it sailing past in a straight line. Arguably that is a worse situation.

Its a tricky tightrope to walk. I think everyone is in agreement, we would all like to see cars arriving at corners side by side, and not have the overtaking done way before the braking point. The issue is, with the current regulations on aerodynamics of an F1 car, this 'catch and pull up alongside the guy infront' scenario is very rare without some sort of help given to the following driver. Whatever solution is provided, it needs to only counteract the loss from following a car, not give them a boost.

So for example:

Driver A is in front doing 1:30 laps, and driver B is behind doing 1:29 laps and catches driver A. However, the dirty air means driver B is now 1 second behind driver A, but his lap times are down to 1:30, or 1 second slower than what he can do in clean air.

A proper device should eliminate the disadvantage of following a car, but not give extra advantage to the following driver. Therefore in this scenario the ideal solution would be to make driver B 1 second a lap quicker. In theory that means they will be side by side, which is what we want.

The problems with DRS have come when the advantage to the following driver have exceeded the disadvantage of following, therefore giving a net benifit, which I agree, is wrong. However, this isnt always the case. In China I think it was spot on, while in places like Australia and Monaco, DRS provided to little a benifit that didn't counteract the speed lost following a car.

Now wether this little extra ooomph comes from DRS, KERS, or magic fairy dust, I don't really care, but providing a driver can demonstrate an ability to catch someone, and then maintain that speed to have the ability to attempt a pass, then we get good racing.

I would be slightly concerned that a 1 in 3 lap uber KERS boost would be worse than DRS. Especially if it could be used regardless of your proximity to another car. It could even promote the user of KERS to catch someone, but then run out and end up stuck behind someone.

I would also like to make the point that I think F1 is the wrong formula for KERS. KERS has shown great potential in improving fuel efficiancy and trning 2wd into 4wd at a push of a button (see Porsche 911 GT3 RSR Hybrid race car). Therefore I think GT and Endurance racing are much better arenas for KERS development. It is also much closer to road technology than F1.

With a massive rewright of the rules of F1, especially those around aero, I think we could eliminate, or atleast reduce the 'following a car' problem. But then this is something we have all known for years, and even though the FIA suggested it for 2013, they once again seem to have missed a trick and stuck with a high aero formula. :(
 
drunkenmaster said:
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Whilst I pretty much agree that DRS hasn't been right at most races (other than China, where I think they got it spot on), I think you are being to harsh on new technology.

As I have just explained, DRS should cancel out the time lost following another car, but not then carry on to give you an advantage. Like you said, it should help you overtake, not make the overtake.

The problem is, the FIA have no idea exactly how DRS will work untill race day. They cant exactly go out and move sensors during the race either. So they have to make best estimates for where to put the zones and then hope they are right. I'm sure they will admit that some (most) of them weren't quite right. Provided they learn from that then next year things should be much better. After all, DRS has been too good, no good, and spot on, which proves there is middle ground to be had. If it was consistently too good, or consistently no good, I would agree its not working. But I think it just needs time to mature. Afterall, you think KERS is great, but that has taken 2 seasons for teams to get right, and RB haven't even done that yet.
 
Whilst DRS is not perfect, to make it better I would like to see a system that removes any grip penalty for following closely. Sadly, I fear this is impossible unless they allow selective ground effect, ie once you get close enough to a car in front you gain some ground effect to compensate for lost grip.

If they did that, we could get back to overtaking from a decent slipstream without a driver going banzai into a corner to remain close enough on the exit.
 
CS||nuTs said:
Hmmm engine mapping in comparison is lethal!
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:D

I think the issue with engine mapping is they don't want to find themselves in a ferrari 2002 scenario when there is a lot of complicated stuff going on they don't understand any longer.

I thought the mapping rules in the first place would be a lot more restrictive than they seem to be. I wonder what other tricks have been done with the mapping :(
 
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