DSR - Returning Item

[JamesM]

Surely things like checking if you like the performance of a GPU isn't something thats possible in a shop environment either though which is what DSR was created to protect against.

Surely thats stated by a DB rating by the manufacturers? So surely the only way you could return it would be if it exceeded that range (which would be covered by an RMA anyway)

Most people wouldn't know what DB relates to in real life. People may sit closer to their PC case than others and notice the noise more.

Also if we are going to start buying GPUs based on manufacturing specs, are they going to start putting in a coil whine rating for each GPU they sell to advise the customer that coil whine may be present instead of advertising a card as "cool and quiet".

It may very well be cool and quiet but when you can hear your GPU buzzing away while gaming how can that not be annoying?

 

[Gibbo]

Simple.

We test it on a quality PSU on an open bench and we run some games and video playback. If we can hear it whining above the graphics fans set to auto or low speed we will class it as a fault and change it. In benchmarks at high FPS moments we wont class as a fault as benchmarking is not normal use, just like running a car on a dyno is not normal use. We also test at stock, not overclocked!

If we can't hear it or only hear it by placing our head next to the card with fans on minimum then its not a fault. As this would be in-audible in a closed case.

But to make people understand coil whine on electronic hardware is not a fault, it is inheret in the design of electrical components. Our stance is if it can be heard noticeable or even worse it is screaming we will replace no quibble.

Anyone who thinks coil whine is an actual fault though is wrong, it is inheret in the design and a quality PSU can help drastically reduce it and we will test any returns on a quality PSU such as a Superflower Gold/Platinum rated unit. We won't test on something like a Corsair Builder/CX model or even worse unbranded cheap junk as they are low-end PSU's and to put it simply you should not be using high-end graphics cards on PSU's designed for budget systems. A bit like you'd not run a Ferrari on unleaded petrol.

Also for people who think coil whine is a fault no matter how minor, it really is not, like I say it is inheret in design, but we will exchange a card which can be heard on a quality PSU as we are good like that.

Another car analogy, two E46 M3's, one cars engine is rattly and consumes oil, the others engine purrs like a kitten and consumes no oil. So is the first car faulty? NO! BMW would simply say to you that is within tolerance and specification, nothing is wrong with your vehicle and would end there. Because it is all within tolerance/specification.


P.S. We always recommend to use a card for 1-2 days first and try to put them under heavy load for a few hours such a Heaven, because just like running in a cars engine, your also running in the card and typically they quieten down after a few days usage or it goes completely.

 

[JamesM]

This is an interesting thread. Just out of curiosity and now that retailers have some protection, would anyone here freely admit to buying items with the sole intention of playing with them for a weekend, and then sending them back? I've personally never done it, but I imagine it must be absolutely rife.

Would anyone admit to doing this though?

I agree, under the previous rules I can imagine this happened all the time and in some regards, also helped sales as people bought items and the performance was so good, kept them.

I bought an SSD a few weeks ago and it turned out I didn't actually need it (windows 10 needed more space). It arrived, I requested a RMA. Opened the parcel to check it was ok, resealed and returned and sent it back, no issues.

That's fine.

If I could buy a top of the range GPU for £50 and it had coil whine, to be honestly, i'd probably just live with it. However when your spending close to £300 in some cases you expect it to be as advertised and not have a single issue.

The coil whine issue just happens to be the talk at the moment. My question is what do OcUK consider acceptable testing when receiving a GPU? Are we going to be hit with a 25% restock fee as soon as the box is opened? When the GPU is installed? That's what Bailey kindly answered.

 

[AtreuS]

As regards coil whine we also have to remember that some people are much more sensitive to high pitched sounds.

What for some is barely a sound for some is a high pitched unbearable noise!!

 

[Gibbo]

Would anyone admit to doing this though?

I agree, under the previous rules I can imagine this happened all the time and in some regards, also helped sales as people bought items and the performance was so good, kept them.

I bought an SSD a few weeks ago and it turned out I didn't actually need it (windows 10 needed more space). It arrived, I requested a RMA. Opened the parcel to check it was ok, resealed and returned and sent it back, no issues.

That's fine.

If I could buy a top of the range GPU for £50 and it had coil whine, to be honestly, i'd probably just live with it. However when your spending close to £300 in some cases you expect it to be as advertised and not have a single issue.

The coil whine issue just happens to be the talk at the moment. My question is what do OcUK consider acceptable testing when receiving a GPU? Are we going to be hit with a 25% restock fee as soon as the box is opened? When the GPU is installed? That's what Bailey kindly answered.

For us as a business it is easy for us to spot individuals doing this, by looking at their order history, if a person has a history of buying the same type of cards and returning several under DSR all within a short period of time and us finding no fault with them then it is clear they were used simply to overclock and return.

Its a rare occurance but it has happened, now such offenders will simply be hit with re-stocking fee's, it is so rare though that it really effects no one, just those blatantly taking the mick and trying to abuse the system, hence why the old DSR act is no more to help protect etailors from such people. Thankfully most people don't abuse the system!

 

[Gibbo]

As regards coil whine we also have to remember that some people are much more sensitive to high pitched sounds.

What for some is barely a sound for some is a high pitched unbearable noise!!

Any return for coil whine, several of us will listen and if ones of us states to the others, that is audible then RMA accepted.

Bear in mind we test on open bench, so we are far more likely to hear it than an end user in a closed case.

But what we won't accept is a card with no coil whine in our test systems but coil whines in the customers PC because they are using a junk PSU on a high-end card.

 

[Hagar]

As regards coil whine we also have to remember that some people are much more sensitive to high pitched sounds.

What for some is barely a sound for some is a high pitched unbearable noise!!

And over age 30 or so, the higher frequencies disappear progressively.

20 or even 16kHz response is lost.

 

[C.R.A.Z.Y]

If you open the box, according to other threads, then it can't be sold as new so you'd loose some of the refund.

Anyone who has bought significant amount of hardware knows that a lot of retailers simply resell it as brand new. (Hence why DSR stipulated that the product had to be returned in an 'as new' condition)

I have in the past recieved a few products I know and can tell that they have clearly already been opened before, however after getting over the initial annoyance of this I have always simply kept it after thoroughly testing the product and reminding myself that it still has the normal 12month warranty.

I would much rather have to occasionally deal with and except that and keep the excellent DSR consumer protection then have this stupid new legislation which is 100% going to be abused by retailers and screw consumers out of money

Thankfully most people don't abuse the system!

So the majority have been punished for the actions of the minority ?? Sounds fair

Ohhh and I don't believe for one second that the majority of retailers didn't then re-sell the product as brand new again, provided the product was looked after and returned in an 'as new condition' as described in DSR then this is reasonable and anyone championing DSR simply have to except that!!

 

[cainer]

And over age 30 or so, the higher frequencies disappear progressively.

20 or even 16kHz response is lost.

i was going to mention this as some places use a Mosquito alarm to deter teens from hanging around, see here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mosquito

 

[chanjy]

CRAZY, pretty sure returning 'as new' never applied - the relevant term was 'reasonable care'

Real can of worms this one. The benefit of DSR was that it was 100% clear even if you didn't like it. This one might be designed to be fairer but creates more confusion!

 

[Gibbo]

Anyone who has bought significant amount of hardware knows that a lot of retailers simply resell it as brand new. (Hence why DSR stipulated that the product had to be returned in an 'as new' condition)

I have in the past recieved a few products I know and can tell that they have clearly already been opened before, however after getting over the initial annoyance of this I have always simply kept it after thoroughly testing the product and reminding myself that it still has the normal 12month warranty.

I would much rather have to occasionally deal with and except that and keep the excellent DSR consumer protection then have this stupid new legislation which is 100% going to be abused by retailers and screw consumers out of money




So the majority have been punished for the actions of the minority ?? Sounds fair

Don't roll eyes me, I am not the UK government making these decisions.

 

[MooMoo444]

For us as a business it is easy for us to spot individuals doing this, by looking at their order history, if a person has a history of buying the same type of cards and returning several under DSR all within a short period of time and us finding no fault with them then it is clear they were used simply to overclock and return.

Wow, people actually would do that? That is a **** take.

 

[C.R.A.Z.Y]

A very small minority and as with all systems you are going to get a few a holes that take the mickey, doesn't mean we should then legislate to stack the cards against the majority who are not abusing the system

The only good thing I can see about this new legislation is that it will quickly separate the decent companies from the scummy, the decent companies will simply carry on as if nothing has changed and hand out FULL refunds to customers who have been reasonable, we then will have to simply vote with our feet (or should that be wallet!)

 

[~Divine~Wind~]

DSR no longer exists, this is a fact.
Your credit card company would point you to the new CCR and point out that the retailer is now well within their right to charge you a fee if they feel there has been excessive use of the product.

Excessive use of the product?
The chap above turned the laptop on decided it wasn't adequate for his needs.
The "loss" of value because windows has been activated is a bit harsh imho, restore the machine and power it off, the next person to power it on will have to go thru all the usual guff as you would expect with a newly bought laptop

As regards coil whine we also have to remember that some people are much more sensitive to high pitched sounds.

What for some is barely a sound for some is a high pitched unbearable noise!!

Yeah as long as a handfull of people listen to it like Gibbo pointed out thats fair

 

[Hagar]

Personally I would not be adverse to a reasonable restocking fee as a percieved offset to benefits of being able to shop conveniently on line.

There are significant costs in man hours to check, repackage and place back into stock.

The restocking fee will allow etailers (the best ones) to factor this cost into their business model and have an equitable arrangement that does not unduly punish the consumer. A blanket 25% would IMO.

Etailers could be upfront with this and specify a restocking fee, maybe on the basket of goods so that it is clear at time of purchase.

Customers who buy four processors or GPU's and return three are taking the michael as far as I can see. They deserve to pay for restocking or do what some responsible buyers do and recycle them through MM. Wholly more creditable.

I would continue to support OCUK if their stance is reasonable on restocking (as I am sure it will be). Customer service is paramount to success.

 

[tom_e]

Excessive use of the product?
The chap above turned the laptop on decided it wasn't adequate for his needs.
The "loss" of value because windows has been activated is a bit harsh imho, restore the machine and power it off, the next person to power it on will have to go thru all the usual guff as you would expect with a newly bought laptop

I was making a general point rather than one relating to the crazy fee they've charged this poor bloke.

 

[MoRT489]

Anyone who has bought significant amount of hardware knows that a lot of retailers simply resell it as brand new. (Hence why DSR stipulated that the product had to be returned in an 'as new' condition)

That is simply not true. The DSR referred to the consumer taking reasonable care of the item, there was not even a requirement to return it in the original packaging and the retailer was not allowed to resell opened items as new ones (but I'm sure some did). OCUK has/had a B-Grade section which often sold such items because they couldn't be resold as new.

The CCR allows the retailer to deal with abusers of this process where they have clearly done more with the product than you would be allowed to do in a shop environment - this is where the deduction comes in.

The regulations themselves say (bold added for emphasis):

(9) If (in the case of a sales contract) the value of the goods is diminished by any amount as a result of handling of the goods by the consumer beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods, the trader may recover that amount from the consumer, up to the contract price.

(10) An amount that may be recovered under paragraph (9)—

(a)may be deducted from the amount to be reimbursed under paragraph (1);
(b)otherwise, must be paid by the consumer to the trader.
(11) Paragraph (9) does not apply if the trader has failed to provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

(12) For the purposes of paragraph (9) handling is beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods if, in particular, it goes beyond the sort of handling that might reasonably be allowed in a shop.

But the gov.uk implementing guidance is not particularly helpful as it contradicts itself:

14. You have a right to deduct monies from refunds where goods show signs of unreasonable use leading to diminished value. You cannot usually deduct for removal of packaging to inspect the item, but you can deduct for damage or wear and tear where the item has not just been checked but used.

Example where online toy opened and packaging damaged:16. You cannot deduct for the bubble wrap and brown box since it would have been reasonable for the customer to remove these to see the item in the way they would in a shop. However, it would not have been necessary to go further and open the box nor especially to open the sealed packets. You will therefore be able to reduce the refund to reflect the diminished value.

 

[JamesM]

For us as a business it is easy for us to spot individuals doing this, by looking at their order history, if a person has a history of buying the same type of cards and returning several under DSR all within a short period of time and us finding no fault with them then it is clear they were used simply to overclock and return.

I understand that you don't want this to happen but surely, as the post I quoted below said, your now punishing everybody because of a minority.

Wouldn't it of made more sense to say "hey, if you change your mind on the item fine, simply return it to us within 14 days and we will issue you a refund. However please be aware that we monitor the number of refunds a customer processes and we reserve the right to charge a 25% re-stocking fee for repeat offenders."

It would have been much clearer to everyone. However we are currently getting different comments/statements from everyone. You said to a guy in the Graphics forum to put a FAO note in his RMA for your attention. He mentioned this on the RMA web note and was told "Gibbo has nothing to do with RMA's. We do not RMA for coil whine."

Everything is a bit confusing at the moment. A simple news post or sticky thread saying this is our stance, this is what we check, repeat offenders will be charged a percentage of a fee for re-stocking.

Anyone who has bought significant amount of hardware knows that a lot of retailers simply resell it as brand new. (Hence why DSR stipulated that the product had to be returned in an 'as new' condition)

I have in the past recieved a few products I know and can tell that they have clearly already been opened before, however after getting over the initial annoyance of this I have always simply kept it after thoroughly testing the product and reminding myself that it still has the normal 12month warranty.

I would much rather have to occasionally deal with and except that and keep the excellent DSR consumer protection then have this stupid new legislation which is 100% going to be abused by retailers and screw consumers out of money

So the majority have been punished for the actions of the minority ?? Sounds fair

Ohhh and I don't believe for one second that the majority of retailers didn't then re-sell the product as brand new again, provided the product was looked after and returned in an 'as new condition' as described in DSR then this is reasonable and anyone championing DSR simply have to except that!!

When you buy something, whether online or in store you expect it to be brand new. Simple as that.

I'm not having a go at OcUK here, i'm certainly not anti OcUK with the amount i've spent over the years but the whole B grade thing worries me slightly.

The number of threads on this forum with people talking about returning their GPUs for this and that. CPUs being binned and sold 'elsewhere' and not put back into the customer product line. Yet there are what, 4 CPUs in the B Grade CPU section and a single GPU (AMD mind).

Coupled with the fact that you have people posting this

Yesterday I received Galax gtx 970. Inside the box are foot prints. Card was used.
Really guys? Is that your improvement?

Is does make you think hang on, if I order from OcUK am I either a) getting a brand new item with hasn't been opened, let alone installed in another system or b) am I getting a used card, why is it used? Poor clocker? High coil whine? etc

I've always bought 99% of my stuff from OcUK because your well priced, the customer service when i've had to deal with it has been spot on for things like faulty PSUs etc (Bailey is simply fantastic) however we are, especially the majority of people on this forum, overclockers. It's bad enough buying a CPU and having the silicone lottery but when other factors are added it does put doubt in your mind whether to order from OcUK again. My previous CPUs were retail simply because, from what I gather on this forum, retail CPUs aren't touched for your systems.

 

[Gibbo]

I understand that you don't want this to happen but surely, as the post I quoted below said, your now punishing everybody because of a minority.

Wouldn't it of made more sense to say "hey, if you change your mind on the item fine, simply return it to us within 14 days and we will issue you a refund. However please be aware that we monitor the number of refunds a customer processes and we reserve the right to charge a 25% re-stocking fee for repeat offenders."

It would have been much clearer to everyone. However we are currently getting different comments/statements from everyone. You said to a guy in the Graphics forum to put a FAO note in his RMA for your attention. He mentioned this on the RMA web note and was told "Gibbo has nothing to do with RMA's. We do not RMA for coil whine."

Everything is a bit confusing at the moment. A simple news post or sticky thread saying this is our stance, this is what we check, repeat offenders will be charged a percentage of a fee for re-stocking.



When you buy something, whether online or in store you expect it to be brand new. Simple as that.

I'm not having a go at OcUK here, i'm certainly not anti OcUK with the amount i've spent over the years but the whole B grade thing worries me slightly.

The number of threads on this forum with people talking about returning their GPUs for this and that. CPUs being binned and sold 'elsewhere' and not put back into the customer product line. Yet there are what, 4 CPUs in the B Grade CPU section and a single GPU (AMD mind).

Coupled with the fact that you have people posting this



Is does make you think hang on, if I order from OcUK am I either a) getting a brand new item with hasn't been opened, let alone installed in another system or b) am I getting a used card, why is it used? Poor clocker? High coil whine? etc

I've always bought 99% of my stuff from OcUK because your well priced, the customer service when i've had to deal with it has been spot on for things like faulty PSUs etc (Bailey is simply fantastic) however we are, especially the majority of people on this forum, overclockers. It's bad enough buying a CPU and having the silicone lottery but when other factors are added it does put doubt in your mind whether to order from OcUK again. My previous CPUs were retail simply because, from what I gather on this forum, retail CPUs aren't touched for your systems.

Seriously stop taking out of context what I say to other people, I ask for a note with his graphics card so I could listen to it, not as to whether or not it would be accepted for RMA, we've already decided to accept it back.

I simply want it as it is clear it suffers from whine and as such I want to test it on some different PSU's to see if it can be cured at all and is nothing to do with whether or not we will accept or deny RMA. It is for my own testing and to see if I can cure a card known to have it. We do a lot of R&D here and that is why I want it. Just like how we were testing Samsung's performance restoration firmware for them before it went public, just like how we helped design the MSI 290X Lightning, we have a lab and we conduct our own testing and product designs in house.

Our RMA's are done by Bailey and they are doing a great job for our customers, no one is being punished for the activities of others, we are simply following the new laws and like you say for any individual who does seem to be abusing it will indeed be finding themselves with a restocking fee. People with genuine reasons for return we will sort out and make happy just like we have always done.

 

[Bailey]

Backing up what Gibbo says here please don't take anything out of context.

Myself and Gibbo are always here to help our customers in any way we can do that is why we will check the coil whine on cards for customers

I manage the RMA department and I try and make sure everyone is treated with respect and as good as possible. In regards to the new laws we are just complying with the CCR as any other company would do so.

Any unwanted returns are either B graded or sent back to manufacturer if they are faulty.

I do try my best to keep service levels as high as possible so if anyone has an issue you know I am always here to assist

Bailey