Dune (2020) - Denis Villeneuve
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Soldato
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Why wouldn’t people like it?
Was some expecting a a brain dead Star Wars movie with no plot, bad acting etc?
They been spoon fed Marvel for the past 15 odd years
If you read the books they go into the origin of the fremen . Kinda like a branch of Islamic/Jews nomads that ended up settling on arakis. X thousand years ago.
Jessica can speak poorly understand their ancient "Arabic" inspired language because so much of it was "implanted" into them, seeded to help the Missionaria Protectiva, giving them the safety net they need by exploiting their religious bs
.The prophecy etc. She stumbles into it so well in the book, the film totally almost glossed over it.It's Jessica in reality that steers Paul to greatness, not really just him wanting to like in the film.
She's a complete badass tbh. Eyes on the prize.
Can't wait for the series on HBO too. I hope that materializes
I deffo will listen to that on iPlayer
1. So I never read the books any enjoyed 2021 adaptation. Now I'm someone who doesn't read books but is it worth watching the 1984 adaptation? Does it go beyond 2021? Which part of the books does it end at?
2. And what was the alliance all about between mohiam and the baron? How do they benefit each other? I dont mind spoilers.
I don't mind being spoiled. Maybe leave it in hidden tags if possible?
2. And what was the alliance all about between mohiam and the baron? How do they benefit each other? I dont mind spoilers.
I don't mind being spoiled. Maybe leave it in hidden tags if possible?
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Saw it last night at Curzon so small screen. As expected, visually and audibly amazing but felt the pacing was all over the place and the last half hour was very weak and the final sequence very shoe horned in
May still go and see it in iMax however
May still go and see it in iMax however
The 1984 version is worth a watch, but you have to bear in mind it's a product of it's time. It certainly has a particular style and good performances, and stands up surprisingly well. It finishes at the end of the first book of Dune
with Paul defeating both the Harkonnen and Emperor, taking over the empire and control of Arakkis. Paul also makes it rain on Arakkis, which actually makes no sense (and Herbert didn't like it) as it would actually kill all the worms)and is not the ending of the book.
If you are interested in the story but don't want to read the books, there are a couple of pretty good mini-series from the Sy-Fy channels that cover the first three books and end at Leto II's (Paul's son) decision to embark on the Golden Path. The series have obviously been made on a limited budget, but they follow the books pretty faithfully, have a distinct visual style, and have a lot of good acting.
This one is a little complicated. The Bene Gesserit are a massive political power behind the scenes. They supply advisors, truth sayers, and concubines (that provide heirs) to all the rich and powerful players in the empire. They have a long term strategy to create an ultimate being (the Kwizats Haderach) under their control. The fact that Jessica falls in love with Leto and gives him a son (instead of a daughter as ordered) messes with their plans, and creates a superbeing that is not under their control, and this terrifies the Bene Gesserit and threatens their power.
Jessica is actually the illegitimate daughter of Baron Harkonnen (as part of the Bene Gesserit breeding program) planned to have a daughter with Leto, who would then be married to Feyd Rutha (Baron Harkonnen's nephew) to create the Bene Gesserit Kwisatz Haderach.
The Bene Gersserit want the Harkonnens to kill Paul, so they can take back control of their breeding program, and not lose power to a Kwizatz Haderach not in their control. The Bene Gesserit are embedded in all the big Houses and the Emperor's retinue. Paul taking control loses them everything.
Baron Harkonnen wants to kill Paul and take back the source of his power and money (by running Spice production on Arakkis on behalf of CHOAM and the Emperor). He also wants to destroy House Atredies due to the long term vendatta between the Harkonnens and the Atredies (which dates back to the Butlerian Jihad against thinking machines where House Harkonnen fails to fight on the side of the Atredies and are then branded cowards).
In fact the only reason that the Atredies are offered Arakkis is because the Emperor fears being supplanted by a more popular Leto, and wants to use the Harkonnens to destroy House Atredies. Baron Harkonnen agrees to this because he knows it's a temporary state of affairs that gives him a chance to destroy the Atredies. The Bene Gesserit are prompting and advising both the Emperor and Harkonnens into this course of action because they want Paul (and by extension all of House Atredies) gone so they can resume breeding their own Kwizatz Haderach. If Paul gets there first, it will be pretty impossible for the Bene Gesserit Kwizatz Haderach to wrest power from Paul (as he is the one creating the future with his presience). Paul will also see the Bene Gesserit as a threat to him, and will curb or destroy them (as Leto II does over the next few thousand years).
So in summary, it's in the best interests of the Emperor, the Bene Gesserit, and the Harkonnens to be rid of Paul and House Attredies, but all for very different reasons, so they are all working together to further their own agendas some of which are obvious, some of which are secret. Even the Spacing Guild are in on this, as they have a limited ability to see the future, and see the downfall of their power and money as the Atredies Jihad interferes with the Spice production and their ability to run their monopoly on space travel and trade. This disruption happens almost incidentally as Paul and the Fremen fight to take control of Arakkis (and thus the Empire) against the re-establised rule of the Harkonnens after the supposed fall of House Atredies.
Edit: Actually thinking back, Paul's disruption of the Spice mining is more deliberate than incidental. It's designed to make all the involved parties look bad, and bring the galaxy's focus to Arakkis. In the end it forces all the main players to turn up with the Emperor to try and sort out a bad situation that the Harkonnens have been hiding ie that Spice production has all but stopped and the Empire is about to suffer a massive lack of Spice.
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Don't get me wrong I Ike SW but Dune for me (new fan) has way more depth, lore, sophistication and character development and inter relationships. I can see Warhammer 40K has been heavily influenced by Dune. I only watched the 80s movie last year and thought it was good too.
@Steampunk great post. Very informative. Do you think they will introduce
sonic wielding guns?
its really slow and not a lot of action.
lots of people didn't like blade runner 20whatever - i did but this is not a movie for everyone
IIRC, Paul's story ends at the end of book 2 and start of book 3
At the end of Book 1, Paul is Emperor, at Book 2, he's head of the Fremen Jihad, taking over the galaxy and reworking the ecosystem of Arakkis, before walking into the desert to die Fremen style, blinded by a radiation bomb. He comes back in book 3 as a preacher rabble rousing against the House Atredies (now effective headed by his sister Alia, who gets taken over by the genetic memories of her grandfather Baron Harkonnen and becomes abomination) and is killed as his identity is discovered. The third book is also about Leto II's rise alongside his sister. Paul refuses the Golden Path, Leto accepts it.
In the books, after Paul joins the Fremen, he fights the Harkonnens for about two years
before beating the emperor and Harkonnens. There's a lot of stuff about the Arakeen ecosystem, and the Fremen society that the film hasn't got to yet. Then there's (IIRC) about ten years of jihad before Paul walks into the desert to kill himself. About five years later Paul reappears as a blind preacher and is killed. Leto II and his sister Ghanna is now dealing with a plot by what's left of House Corrino (the old Emperor's house) to kill the Atredies and retrieve the throne. Leto II accepts the Golden Path and becomes the God Emperor Tyrant and spends the next 3500 years (in book 4) rebuilding Arakkis and human society to be immune to superhumans that will force humanity to follow their future visions.
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I saw this last night at an Imax, and really enjoyed it.
The visual design was excellent, some great performances and being at an Imax, the sound was incredible.
In particular I loved the 'Thopters, the first time I've seen them done justice in any filmed version of the story.
The adaptation was better in many ways than the David Lynch or TV miniseries versions, but also had a few things that should have been done better that would have made the plot more understandable for people who haven't read the books or watched the other versions.
The visual design was excellent, some great performances and being at an Imax, the sound was incredible.
In particular I loved the 'Thopters, the first time I've seen them done justice in any filmed version of the story.
The adaptation was better in many ways than the David Lynch or TV miniseries versions, but also had a few things that should have been done better that would have made the plot more understandable for people who haven't read the books or watched the other versions.
Most notably the betrayal by Doctor Yueh, as it was never explained that the Suk school training meant that the Doctor should not have been capable of betrayal, so when it happens it's more shocking. The 1984 film did this much better, and also foreshadowed the events by having Yueh tell Paul of his wife.
Yes, but it's got it where it counts. The story, characters and acting are good, which is more than you can say for a lot of more modern shows.
I've just read the books several times since I was a teenager, and those books leave a mark on the imagination. I always have a book on the go, but I often find myself revisiting my favourite books as they are better than spending time on something mediocre just because it is new (ie quality over quantity). I find over the years that the truly great stories always seem to show you something new on a re-reading.
I've also realised that my favourite books are never going to be a good translation to film. Yes, it's great to see someone like Villeneuve show me his vision, to sit back and have the visuals and soundtrack wash over me, but it's never going to encompass the complexity, subtlety, nuance and engagement with the reader of the novels, and that goes for even the great successes like LoTR.
The way the movie industry is set up to create, finance, sell and market films mean we are only ever going to see a thin slice of these massive stories and huge imaginary worlds. It's ironic because we finally have the technology to realistically put anything we like on the screen, and that technology seems to have overtaken the place of storytelling in favour of spectacular, but often empty visual gluttony. The compromises to make a film ensure that we never get the depth of the books, and so the movie-goer gets a pale shadow of the author's intention.
In some ways I find a script written successfully for a movie can hit the mark as it has been crafted from scratch with the limitations of the film industry in mind. Trying to take a complex source material of thousands of pages and attempting to squeeze the quart into the pint pot is at best going to be unsatisfactory, and at worst a disaster.
So yes, those books (and many others) will always maintain their place in our storytelling culture, because there's nothing out there good enough to replace them in their entirety.
Soldato
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Was good. A bit Diet Dune but I’m one of those people that thinks it’d take a movie budget mini-series and a helluva scriptwriter to manage to get everything in without resorting to ‘character A telling something character B knows solely to inform the audience’. What I saw had a lot of omission I’d rather drink a Diet Coke than none at all when parched.
Had some issues with some of the music/sound-design muting the dialogue in a few scenes. Need to watch it again.
Had some issues with some of the music/sound-design muting the dialogue in a few scenes. Need to watch it again.
Soldato
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Cliff notes:
In the Dune universe somewhere beyond 10,000 years from now, in the aftermath of the Butlerian Jihad (a religious crusade against the way humans had subjugated their thinking to machines and those that wielded them, creating a culture where human potential was maximised through the use of psychoactive substances and intense training) the great religious leaders, whose own religions like BudIslamism and Zenchristianty had intermingled in ways they haven’t currently got together and hammered out a book called The Orange Catholic Bible; a fusion of all significant religious thought in human history. This is the majority religion of the Imperium and remains so for another 10,000 years plus until the beginning of the film.
The Fremen’s religion was an offshoot of a minor Zensunni religion from back then… albeit one tampered with by the Bene Gesserit’s religious engineering with primitive cultures, sowing seeds of superstition so that a Reverend Mother could present herself as a prophetic figure in order to manipulate the religious subjects for protection or other purposes.
Consequently in the Dune series you have words from all the different major religions and some from different languages (that are long dead in Dune - we hear English but the characters are mostly speaking Galaxy, the common tongue) that have been corrupted by the passage of time somewhat rather than it being purely Western-centric. You can waste a lot of time on this stuff if you go online - Herbert spent half a decade doing all the research before he wrote the book.
If you want to know more about the Dune universe, look up 'Dune Encyclopedia' - It's an out of print book which you can find online that though some of the 'technical' information in it has been 'de-canonised' by later books, the history is extremely interesting, and goes into great detail.
Soldato
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I got the impression by omitting this it allowed them to omit a whole bunch of other stuff that revolved around that to trim things down: if memory serves, there’s that whole bit about suspecting a traitor and fake-intel making Hawat suspicious of Jessica - who blames her until they meet again in the second half - which is why we need to know about Yueh’s Imperial Conditioning since it means he isn’t considered. Take out the talk of a traitor and you take out the need to explain the Suk stuff.
Ideally I wanted them to keep everything in but alas this wasn’t LoTR with a 4 hour running time.
Ideally I wanted them to keep everything in but alas this wasn’t LoTR with a 4 hour running time.