EBD ban.

AcidHell2 said:
Some times I wonder if you even read people's posts.
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I do


AcidHell2 said:
I think everyone has said hes a good driver.
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Yes. But many people are raising questions marks as to whether he is just good or is he "great". For me, based on the evidence of this season, I would say he is great and is showing the best form of any driver so far this season.

AcidHell2 said:
Alonso has a lot more experience and we know how he handles all situations. Vettel we simply don't know.
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You can only judge Vettel on the situations that he is placed in. So far this season, he has shown that he is able to make the best use of the equipment he has been given.

You cannot ask any driver to do more than this.

AcidHell2 said:
The car is the fastest, especially in qauli mode by a huge amount.
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In qualifying, RBR is the fastest. No question. In race pace though, there were 3 races on the trot where they were not the fastest. In one race, Hamilton caught and passed Vettel (China). In the other race Button caught and passed Vettel (Canada). In Monaco, where Ferrari and McLaren were both faster, Vettel won (albeit with a bit of luck from the red flag). If Senna did this, everybody would hail him as a great driver, as he beat 2 faster cars...Vettel does it and people question his ability.

There were 3 races where Vettel could easily not have finished on the podium...but he did.

AcidHell2 said:
I fully believe they sacrifice race pace for qauli pace and then run hot and turn the engine down.
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Probably. But then Webber could also do this and almost certainly does. The fairest way to compare a driver is with his team-mate (the only other driver with equal/similar equipment). Based on this comparison, there are 2 drivers (this season) who stand-out: Alonso and Vettel.
 
A great driver is not defined by one season or even two. So as of yet vetted is not a great driver. That remains to be seen. We can only judge on three seasons so far and that puts him as a good driver with much expectations for the future.
 
So, are saying that you can't start talking about drivers being great, until they have pretty much finished their careers?

For me, it is a lot more interesting talking about the best drivers in 2011...not the past "greats", who have no relevance in 2011.

In 2011, for me, Vettel, on current form is the best that F1 has to offer, along with Alonso, Hamilton, Button, etc, who incidentally, happen to be WDC.

To suggest that Vettel is anything but the best that 2011 has to offer, is doing his reputation a great dis-service.

For me, Alonso remains top dog, but Hamilton isn't far behind and based on what Vettel has done in the last 10-12 or so races (basically he either wins, finishes 2nd or breaks down), Vettel is definitely up there now.

Last year, in the first half of the year, many people stated that had Alonso/Hamilton been in RBR, Vettel would've taken a battering. I would've agreed with that. But over the last 10 races or so (including the tail end of 2010), Vettel has been in the in-form driver and it is no longer clear whether or not Hamilton/Alonso would beat him in equal machinery.

The only reason why I am rating Alonso so highly is that he has 2 titles, has won more races (than Vettel/Hamilton) and had arguably the strongest 2nd half of last season. Based on what is happening this season, Vettel is definitely closing the gap on Alonso and if he continues, it would be difficult to argue that he isn't the best driver in F1.
 
Greats by definition are current and past and to get that status you need a few seasons under your belt in different situations. It doesn't have to be to the end of their careers. Like Alonso.
 
Vettel has won a season with the BEST car, and arguably now LEADS the season with a top car,

Now if this weekend RBR end up half way down the grid for the rest of the races for the season, and Vettel manages to keep his cool in each race and gain the points needed to Win the WDC? That's when I'll think he's amongst the greats,
 
whats this i saw someone mutter about on a forum , something about renault asking for 29% more throttle opening at 18,000 rpm?
 
Relating to this I guess arknor?

BBC Sport's Andrew Benson at Silverstone: "F1's lastest rule amendment is causing a bit of a kerfuffle this weekend. A ban on off-throttle blowing of diffusers has been introduced - this is where teams continue to blow exhaust gases over the rear of the car when the driver is not pressing the throttle, increasing downforce. But all engines behave differently and it has become apparent that it is not as easy as you might think to ensure there is a level playing field. Red Bull and their supplier Renault have pointed to a characteristic of the Mercedes engine that the Renault does not have, and which they think gives the teams with the German engine an advantage. Red Bull want permission to continue off-throttle blowing to some extent to compensate. Negotiations over this with FIA race director Charlie Whiting have been going on for some days and are continuing on Friday. Red Bull team boss Christian Horner told BBC Sport: 'What is most important is there is equality of treatment across engine suppliers. It has the ability to have a significant effect. It's an issue between Renault and the governing body and of course it has a significant impact on us.'"
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what is the characteristic the mercedes has but the renault doesnt? sounds like bs to me just to have the best engine i didnt see them whining when they were pouring unburnt fuel into the engine and no one else was doing it...

sounds like they got an advantage they shouldnt have and now want to make sure they keep an advantage
 
Sour grapes, tbh.

If they are illegal, tough. If the Merc engine is doing something else which isn't illegal, then what do they expect to do?

I notice there is absolutely no detail on this 'characteristic' and what it does. Perhaps the 'Characteristic' is that its better? lol.
 
how do renault know so much about the mercedes engine anyway?
do they all get given blueprints of each others engine?
is it total guess work?
spying ?
 
s0ck said:
Call me a conspiracy theorist but I just don't believe this.
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Same here, I think Red Bull have been giving Vettel an extra bit of oomph via engine mapping and to get him on pole and from there he knows what to do, unreliable KERS aside I don't think they have sabotaged Webber as I've seen some suggest but rather just given Vettel a little something extra.

I'm very keen to see how Webber performs now that all the dodgy stuff has been banned for Silverstone.
 
The characteristic is that the Mercedes has a "screw type" induction system whereas the Renault has a more traditional "butterfly" type. That's what I heard a couple weeks ago, somewhere. Obviously the different induction system has some side affect upon the new 10% rule for the engine mapping.

Also, the reason the Renault was considered the most fuel efficient engine a couple seasons ago was seemingly because even back then they were doing some off-throttle blowing for cooling. Whereas other engines were perhaps just running a bit richer to get the same cooling effect, but of course at the expense of fuel...
 
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arknor said:
how do renault know so much about the mercedes engine anyway?
do they all get given blueprints of each others engine?
is it total guess work?
spying ?
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Well from the lack of any details in their allegations, I think its fair to say they know very little about the Merc engines.
 
I believe a great driver should be judged across multiple seasons.

Yes, Vettel has had the best car for 18 months, but how would he do if he was sat in a Force India? Like senna in the wet in Monaco for Toleman, there will be a defining race for Vettel, and arguably you could say his Torro Rosso podium was that race, but since then there's been nothing of note.

Senna/Prost/Mansell/Hamilton and Alonso have all come from lower down, in slower cars and won, multiple times. It's not helped when he wins from the front and screams down the team radio like he's just completed LeMann 24 :p
 
The thing with Monza 08 was that all the other top cars had screwed up their qualifying. So yes Vettel had a good performance but it was mostly inherited from others mistakes. He was in the right place at the right time.
 
So the question is, what will they do for the next race?

Stay as it is now?
Go back to how it was before the rule clarification?
Find some kind of middle ground?

And will todays result have any impact? If RBR still run away with Quali and are winners in the race are the FIA less likely to listen to them say they have a disadvantage.
 
Next race will be as it was before any changes.
The FIA need shooting for even considering changing rules (which is against the rules) mid season, let alone mid event. They are responsible for teams being caught right off guard, and if I was Horner or Whitmarsh (the latter most likely!) I'd be shouting at them for a) writing off their chances this race and b) making the British Grand Prix a shambles - pretty much null and void, it's unfortunate that points will stand from the race.
 
I'm just glad I didn't go, hate hate hate this artificial leveling of the playing field, especially mid weekend, next it will be mid race :/
 
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