EBD ban.

[Glaucus]

The only thing that matters is what the fia say and how they interpret the rules

Again no one has said differently.

Be a pretty boring forum if we went with that view point. Take political threads for example, governments in charge so sod opinion and discussion. They can do what they like, after all we gave them the power.

At some point I would like a more constant and transparent FIA and it is only through fans and team pressure will it be achieved. They won't change for no reason as they have income to think about. Unfortunately to many people only care about the racing and not the technology in f1.

 

[Kerming]

Again no one has said differently.

Its in the rules num nuts lol.

FizzyDrinks 1 - Real Racers 0

 

[DBT85]

If someone is blocking up a hole and moving air around the car, that is no less movable aeros than an engine. Infect I would say that's more movable than an engine. As exhausts have always been placed where they aid or at least damage the aero the least.

As I've said before, any car with the f-duct was in itself innocent as nothing on the car actually moved. Moveable Aero is related to the car and not the driver. Even now the f-duct isn't banned by the FIA, FOTA chose not to use it.

When Alonso waves his arms at everyone for not being fast enough he is also changing the aero. If someone worked out that the driver putting his arm out of the cockpit in a certain manner gained them an aero advantage it's not considered movable aero. The car is the one subjected to the regulations, not the driver.

Since the engine is actually part of the car, and is moving to create downforce its entirely understandable why it could be seen as a contravention of the rules and why the f-duct wasn't.

 

[Glaucus]

The engine is always moving and always produced gases, these have always been placed to aid. If it is now suddenly classed as moving aero it should have always been classed. They should have just waited and doing what they are in 2012 dictating exhaust exit.

What do you think all the varies exhaust positions we've seen over the years are for? To aid aero.

Although give it another decade are we going to have any variations in cars, or is it going to be a same spec series. The rules are ridiculously tight and getting exponentially tighter. The fia seem content to rather just banning a piece of technology and allowing other stuff, they seem to always specify exact positioning and dimensions, which disallows any new inventions in that area.

 

[DBT85]

Of course the engine has always moved and always produced aero because of it. The FIA had no problem with you getting aero from using your exhaust outlets cleverly. All that went out the window when they started using the engine as a pump to get more aero when they are not using the engine for power.

It's not considered movable aero when you are on power as the PRIMARY reason the engine is spinning is to generate power. That you manage to get a benefit from the exhaust is just good for you. When you are still using the engine with the PRIMARY and ONLY reason to generate aero how does it NOT get considered movable aero?

The ridiculousness of it is that its taken them this long to pull their thumb out, not that they have finally done it.

 

[Mr Men]

The engine is always moving and always produced gases, these have always been placed to aid. If it is now suddenly classed as moving aero it should have always been classed. They should have just waited and doing what they are in 2012 dictating exhaust exit.

What do you think all the varies exhaust positions we've seen over the years are for? To aid aero.

Although give it another decade are we going to have any variations in cars, or is it going to be a same spec series. The rules are ridiculously tight and getting exponentially tighter. The fia seem content to rather just banning a piece of technology and allowing other stuff, they seem to always specify exact positioning and dimensions, which disallows any new inventions in that area.

And the racing in general is getting better for it, if they never started restricting so much then we would probably have 10 cars on the grid, 3 of them Ferrari's

 

[Glaucus]

And the racing in general is getting better for it, if they never started restricting so much then we would probably have 10 cars on the grid, 3 of them Ferrari's

Really? It's been getting worse because of FiA designs. Groved tires, engine restrictions forcing more aero.

Plenty of teams have always wanted to join f1, fia controls who gets in and how many teams there are, just look how they messed this up, this time around. Some hugely experienced and read teams and we get these three.

 

[Sparky]

Its in the rules num nuts lol.

FizzyDrinks 1 - Real Racers 0

Real Racers? Do you think all the people here previuosly worked in the canning factory?

 

[Glaucus]

Real Racers? Do you think all the people here previuosly worked in the canning factory?

I do wonder what the addiction rate is though?

Congrats on the win. As much as I moaned last year about vettle he's warmed to me this year. Still rather see the Brits win though.

 

[Skeeter]

AcidHell2, are you getting confused?

The EBD is not being banned mid season. It is, as you said it should be like DD and F Ducts, being banned as of the end of the year.

All that is being banned are engine maps that are designed to force high speed gasses through the exhaust while off throttle to increase aerodynamic grip. I can therefore fully understand the FIAs opinion that these are technologies designed to use the engine as an aerodynamic device, and seen as the engine is not powering the car while off throttle, its primary function at that point is to aid aero grip.

You keep talking as if EBD's themselves are being banned as of Silverstone, which simply isn't the case. They have decided they don't want the technology going any further, so have written the rules for 2012 to exclude them. The difference with the engine mapping is that they have decided (correctly, in my opinion) that they are breaking the rules as they are now. Everyone will still be blowing hot exhaust gas through their diffusers while on the throttle for the rest of the year.

 

[Glaucus]

It's all part of the same thing max off throttle will be 10% it's effectively banning EBD, the only reason for not a full ban is due to cost of developing new parts.

 

[DBT85]

Real Racers? Do you think all the people here previuosly worked in the canning factory?

You mean your previous job title WASN'T "Head of Distribution" for the Milton Keynes branch of Red Bull?

So you've been at this for a while then? That sure helps explain why you are all so good at it lol.

It's all part of the same thing max off throttle will be 10% it's effectively banning EBD, the only reason for not a full ban is due to cost of developing new parts.

No the exhaust is still blowing the diffuser all the time you are on throttle. The EBD is still working perfectly well all the time you are on the throttle which, I believe, is still quite a large chunk of time.

At Silverstone its 64% of the lap at full throttle with just 8% on the brakes.

 

[Glaucus]

No the exhaust is still blowing the diffuser all the time you are on throttle. The EBD is still working perfectly well all the time you are on the throttle which, I believe, is still quite a large chunk of time.

it's a large part of time, but most of it is now not wanted. You want the downforce on entry, though and on the exit of the corner. With the ban, you will now only get it on the exit and down the straights but you don't what it down the straights.

 

[DBT85]

it's a large part of time, but most of it is now not wanted. You want the downforce on entry, though and on the exit of the corner. With the ban, you will now only get it on the exit and down the straights but you don't what it down the straights.

and in high speed turns and mid corner when you get back on the throttle? Turn 8 @ Turkey? 130R@ japan? Sure there is a lot coming fro the rear wing but if you are still blowing the diffuser then you can lose some rear wing to gain speed.

Its still going to be of huge benefit to the teams. A large part of RBs advantage has been traction out of corners. That's still going to be there.

 

[Skeeter]

It's all part of the same thing max off throttle will be 10% it's effectively banning EBD, the only reason for not a full ban is due to cost of developing new parts.

What are you talking about? Of course its not 'effectively' banning EBD's. Blowing your exhaust through your diffuser to maximise rear grip is still perfectly legal this year.

What is being banned is using the engine to generate aerodynamic grip while it is not being used to power the car (i.e. they are artificially generating the airflow to create aero grip while the engine is off throttle, meaning the main purpose of the engine at that point is (as well as providing a fair few KG's of ballast) to provide aerodynamic grip).

However, you are right about the cost thing. Banning EBD's is costly, whereas banning engine maps is less so. What you are missing though is that EBD's are not being banned because they are not illegal, whereas off throttle engine maps are as the FIA has clarified them as being illegal in relation to the current regulations. At the point in time the engines are off throttle but blowing the diffuser, they are nothing more than very expensive leaf blowers. Devices that artificially blow/suck air under a car have been banned since the Brabham fan car.

 

[Glaucus]

I was combining all three things into EBDs though it might be clear seeing as I said they where limiting it to 10% of throttle, clearly not clear enough. It's still a ban that isn't needed IMO and also halfway through the season. It's a shambles like usual for what ever reason. Perhaps FIA is to much like a democracy so can never decide things.
As I said I want FIA to be much more consistent and transparent.

 

[Skeeter]

I was combining all three things into EBDs though it might be clear seeing as I said they where limiting it to 10% of throttle, clearly not clear enough. It's still a ban that isn't needed IMO and also halfway through the season. It's a shambles like usual for what ever reason. Perhaps FIA is to much like a democracy so can never decide things.
As I said I want FIA to be much more consistent and transparent.

The FIA have examined the mappings and decided they are breaking the existing rules. There is no new rule about aero grip, there is mearly a clarification that a ban on devices that artificially blow/suck air under the car includes engines doing it with exhaust gasses while off throttle. You yourself stated that the FIA should only be able to clarify rules, not make new ones. See my point above about the fan car/leaf blower idea (in fairness, I probubly added this after you had replied).

And you cant combine all three things into EBD's as they aren't the same thing. Qualifying engine mappings is totally separate (you could run one without any sort of EBD), and off throttle engine mapping is just one way of utilising the EBD's.

The EBD's are still there, in use, perfectly legal, and will be untill the end of the season when they will be banned.

Off throttle maps have been deemed illegal under the current regulations and the regulations have been clarified to reflect this.

And Qualifying mappings were an exception to a rule (parc ferme) which is ttotally seperate to any EBD or aero rules, which the FIA have decided was being abused to have amended the rule to remove the exception.

Its all very simple really, when you get out of the "FIA are trying to slow down RBR to stop them winning the Championship" cloud.

 

[Glaucus]

Its all very simple really, when you get out of the "FIA are trying to slow down RBR to stop them winning the Championship" cloud.

not really as it is not just about RBR, it wouldn't matter who the rules affect or what position they are in. As I said before rules should be changed at the end of the year unless they are clearly illegal.

 

[Skeeter]

not really as it is not just about RBR, it wouldn't matter who the rules affect or what position they are in. As I said before rules should be changed at the end of the year unless they are clearly illegal.

Exactly, and the EBD is being banned through a rule change at the end of the year while the off throttle mappings are banned now as they have been found to be clearly illegal. What is there not to get?

 

[Glaucus]

The mapping and q-maps clearly aren't illegal. Especially q-maps that are explicitly allowed, so how you can say that is anything but a clear change of rules is baffling.