Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

“Can choose to sell for less”

  1. They are legally required to carry out business decisions, in the best interests of the shareholders.[it’s the same for all business with shareholders]
  2. It’s a business at the end of day - they will sell their products for as high as price a possible
  3. They are being taxed a high % on these profits.
  4. They are making big donations to charities and other support orgs.
That legal requirement may not always mean maximum profits, the shareholders best interest might not be profit margins, there is many examples out there where its clear companies could probably charge more than they do.
Not all businesses charge the maximum they can get away with, whilst to many people they just assume thats what everyone would do perhaps because thats what their own selfish self does, thats not the case. I would say 20 years ago it was a uncommon thing, it seems to be in recent years this has become a much stronger trend, margins over volume.
The reason for the high tax is the high profits.
Charities serve as a distraction, it doesnt excuse anything.

This all supports us moving towards the French model. What you typed just shows the problems with having businesses handle an essential commodity.

This has kind of turned into a is profit ok discussion, my original point was people been fooled by the corporate veil where people can be fooled by a subsidiary with much lower margins than its parent company.

Is it reasonable to expect Centrica to subsidise British Gas e.g. from its very healthy profits to support more affordable energy? Something I havent offered an opinion on, I think I read a post above that this is apparently against Ofgem's rules, Ofgem may also not have the power to extend acceptable profits to parent companies also?

Another reason I think going state managed/owned is the way to go on energy production, removes these complexities, and the ££££ needs of shareholders. For as long as we rely on the open market, we need to also satisfy the desires of shareholders.
 
Seems to be a blanket hatred for shareholders from some posters here.
Hatred no.

Part of the current problems with economics? yes.

I have observed quite often people only think in black and white, e.g. I present a flaw with having shareholders owning an essential commodity, and it means I have a blanket hatred of them.

There is a in between, we can still have a capitalist market whilst keeping certain things controlled for the benefit of the wider population vs a small number of shareholders.
 
Hatred no.

Part of the current problems with economics? yes.

I have observed quite often people only think in black and white, e.g. I present a flaw with having shareholders owning an essential commodity, and it means I have a blanket hatred of them.

There is a in between, we can still have a capitalist market whilst keeping certain things controlled for the benefit of the wider population vs a small number of shareholders.
Do you donate to charity ?
 
Hatred no.

Part of the current problems with economics? yes.

I have observed quite often people only think in black and white, e.g. I present a flaw with having shareholders owning an essential commodity, and it means I have a blanket hatred of them.

There is a in between, we can still have a capitalist market whilst keeping certain things controlled for the benefit of the wider population vs a small number of shareholders.
You should have a blanket hatred for environmental climate change people, as they are the reason prices are high in the first place.

The flaw in your thinking is to assign shareholders to be one single group of people, there are many shareholders of many different companies, which are in competition.

Infact the majority of companies dont really make any money, this is due to competition, bad ideas, stupid ideas, the world changing etc.
 
You should have a blanket hatred for environmental climate change people, as they are the reason prices are high in the first place.

The flaw in your thinking is to assign shareholders to be one single group of people, there are many shareholders of many different companies, which are in competition.

Infact the majority of companies dont really make any money, this is due to competition, bad ideas, stupid ideas, the world changing etc.
Nonsense, The oil companies are making record profits because they keep the prices artificially high.

They take advantage of the fact they think we are stupid and don't know the whole sale price has plummeted.

Does Shells record profits not give it away that corporate greed is to blame.
 
Nonsense, The oil companies are making record profits because they keep the prices artificially high.

They take advantage of the fact they think we are stupid and don't know the whole sale price has plummeted.

Does Shells record profits not give it away that corporate greed is to blame.
No think of the poor investors and shareholders.

Remember got to increase the share of that pie.

  • The richest 10% of the world population now owns 76% of all wealth.
 
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Yeah, best thing I have done in ages money saving wise. Currently at 6p gas and 22.5p electricity. Thats 40% off gas and about 30% off electricity. Including the £50 referral I am probably going to see my energy bill nearly halved this month.

I set up a thing to email me the prices daily since I joined on 06/02 (I'm on Go for Electric), and yes, it's consistently not only lower than SVR, but quite a bit lower.

Cheapest rate so far today:

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Is it reasonable to expect Centrica to subsidise British Gas e.g. from its very healthy profits to support more affordable energy? Something I havent offered an opinion on, I think I read a post above that this is apparently against Ofgem's rules, Ofgem may also not have the power to extend acceptable profits to parent companies also?

I already posted on this.
Centrica cannot offer/provide favourable financial rates/services to BG, which it can’t do the same for, for every other energy company. It’s against competition rules.

it’s the same for any business, in any sector, which owns conflicting services.
If allowed, ultimately it would price every one else out of the market, and then they would have a monopoly.

There are advantages of essential services not being government owned.
  • Customers get the best value for money - Regulation and shareholder value means every £1 spent and profit received has to be justified, so there is no wastage.
  • All raised capital and profits are ring fenced to that business and can be used for investment. When Government own a service - the tax, income received from it can and is used for anything.
 
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There are advantages of essential services not being government owned.
  • Customers get the best value for money - Regulation and shareholder value means every £1 spent and profit received has to be justified, so there is no wastage.
  • All raised capital and profits are ring fenced to that business and can be used for investment. When Government own a service - the tax, income received from it can and is used for anything.
that is the theory but in practice it does not work like that.
privatising water one of the arguments made was that the infrastructure would all be upgraded . this never happened. now we just have a crumbling infrastructure and instead of profits going into tax they go into bonuses of shareholder.

rail. we do terribly here. I don't mind my tax money going into rail when it is nationalise. instead we get the worst of everything
rich shareholders get the cream off the profitable parts but the taxpayers still have to bail out the non profitable parts.... and we still have to carry the can for the non profitable part the rail. (the infrastructure)

privatising essential services simy does not work because they HAVE to operate and operate safely, so ultimately tax payers get all the downsides of the business regardless... it's just we don't get the upsides.

I know many of our nationalised services have not been run well. My dad used to be a builder and he was doing some work on water board premises back before privatised. he said the level of disorganisation with 3 groups of people sent off to fix a burst one to look at it, one to do it but didn't take the right tools, and then one to do it again. it was a small burst one that my dad as a 1 man band builder could have fixed proper in a day.

HOWEVER

maybe I am naive but I have to believe it is possible to run a nationalised company effectively. other countries seem to manage it.

TLDR imo anything can be ran poorly , both nationalised and privatised
I have to believe both can be run well, but bottom line if it's an essential service taxpayer's will always have to pay anyway for non profitable parts so we may as well get paid for the profitable bits.
 
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Oil companies don’t set oil prices.
not quite true wrt to opec and iran not having released more supplies, despite us paying for the tanks plus bidan/boris emissary in their direction, if, the refining capacity is available

todays media coverage on the gas price optimism for upcoming winter .. are gas futures tracking that ? (can I get a 12month contract at £50/Mwh yet - ergh no)
and is increased uk rough storage or european LNG terminals bandwidth, and, the long range weather forecast/wind, cooperating.
 
Cap is meant to be the max. Not the actual price.
Tell that to the energy suppliers. They see it as an actual price as they charge the max allowed anyway. Unless the gas price levels so low it triggers a price war between the current energy suppliers. I'm moving to Octopus as soon as the last government help hits my account
 
short memory ? - the tax payer is on the hook/debt for all the money to pay for the gas/electric when it was more expensive.
so the provision that allow for an octopus tracker where you can have the protection of the cap and lower prices at other times (as opposed to paying back the debt - that is) is bizarre,
at least to those that don't run their lives on credit.
 
that is the theory but in practice it does not work like that.
privatising water one of the arguments made was that the infrastructure would all be upgraded . this never happened. now we just have a crumbling infrastructure and instead of profits going into tax they go into bonuses of shareholder.

rail. we do terribly here. I don't mind my tax money going into rail when it is nationalise. instead we get the worst of everything
rich shareholders get the cream off the profitable parts but the taxpayers still have to bail out the non profitable parts.... and we still have to carry the can for the non profitable part the rail. (the infrastructure)

privatising essential services simy does not work because they HAVE to operate and operate safely, so ultimately tax payers get all the downsides of the business regardless... it's just we don't get the upsides.

I know many of our nationalised services have not been run well. My dad used to be a builder and he was doing some work on water board premises back before privatised. he said the level of disorganisation with 3 groups of people sent off to fix a burst one to look at it, one to do it but didn't take the right tools, and then one to do it again. it was a small burst one that my dad as a 1 man band builder could have fixed proper in a day.

HOWEVER

maybe I am naive but I have to believe it is possible to run a nationalised company effectively. other countries seem to manage it.

TLDR imo anything can be ran poorly , both nationalised and privatised
I have to believe both can be run well, but bottom line if it's an essential service taxpayer's will always have to pay anyway for non profitable parts so we may as well get paid for the profitable bits.

Last bit resonates.

We always have to bail out this core infrastructure and even core services (ie banks)

Let's get them back under public ownership. But actually get people in charge paid and accountable for it.

Do a bad job? Don't get paid.


I don't see any reason why these services can't be public. They benefit the tax payer when profitable and cause detriment when making a loss.

It doesn't have to be ****.
 
short memory ? - the tax payer is on the hook/debt for all the money to pay for the gas/electric when it was more expensive.
so the provision that allow for an octopus tracker where you can have the protection of the cap and lower prices at other times (as opposed to paying back the debt - that is) is bizarre,
at least to those that don't run their lives on credit.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. The Octopus tracker doesn't have any cap on the price you could pay. At the moment however its silly that I am getting £67/month from the Gov while paying about 30% less than the cap.
 
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. The Octopus tracker doesn't have any cap on the price you could pay. At the moment however its silly that I am getting £67/month from the Gov while paying about 30% less than the cap.
more bluntly - the tax payer has subsidised the price of energy over winter , you don't think that should be paid back (and the £400)
well you will be paying it back when the nhs isn't financed effectively etc.

(the premise of allowing vendors to sell energy cheaply now/feb, seems questionable, with that outstanding 'loan')
 
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