Population adjusted its decent.150/400 isn't that great a ratio
Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)
- Thread starter DXP55
- Start date
Soldato
All I can find is the following from Ofgem although I remember the conversation between a couple of members earlier about the figures here - https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/informatio...ce-cap-standing-charges-and-unit-rates-region
Going by that Ofgem info - its likely the differences in unit rates between London and Scotland are rarely mentioned as its a difference of between 1.06p/kWh and 0.96p/kWh depending on Southern or Northern Scotland. With an average household Elec consumption (according to Ofgem) of 2,400kWh, its a difference of circa £24.50/year in units
The difference in SC between London and Scotland is circa £78/year or 3 times as much as the equivalent unit charges mentioned above. That's potentially a reason it doesn't get mentioned.
I found out there actually is a subsidy of users in Northern Scotland called the Hydro Benefit Replacement Scheme. I think the issue for Scotland is the cost of supplying people in the north of the country is very high.
Transmission charges are a smaller part of the bill than local distribution and it looks like London is paying more to cover those transmission networks.
You can see more here which confirms what I suspected, the cost of supplying remote rural regions is very high. https://assets.publishing.service.g...ariff-obligation-review-2022-consultation.pdf
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Makes sense when its looking at the distribution side, ignoring the generation side, which is kind of the point some of us are making.
Look at the north of Scotland and see the size of the wind farms generation close by, but which is not treated as local supply.
IE its cheap to connect (relatively per head) in London. But what are they in effect generating?
Even worse when you look at the proposed wind farms around Scotland.
List of offshore wind farms in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
Soldato
Even worse when you look at the proposed wind farms around Scotland.
List of offshore wind farms in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
That's just the offshore ones I see on that list?
Currently Scotland has a little under 16GW of renewable generation with projects in the pipeline taking it to an estimated 26GW or a 62.5% increase over current capacity (https://www.gov.scot/publications/e...q4-2023/pages/renewable-electricity-capacity/). The National Grid cant cope with the Scottish generation as it is so they best get their finger out to be able to cope with the extra else we are just ******* it away
Full Renewable Map of Scotland shows the extent of renewables in the country... Its everywhere (interactive so cant really post an image) - https://spice-spotlight.scot/2024/03/11/renewable-energy-map-of-scotland/
SOURCE
Works out at about 43% of wind renewables for the UK is generated in Scotland... I appreciate the data is 2-3 years old but the rest of the UK should get their finger out
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That's just the offshore ones I see on that list?
Currently Scotland has a little under 16GW of renewable generation with projects in the pipeline taking it to an estimated 26GW or a 62.5% increase over current capacity (https://www.gov.scot/publications/e...q4-2023/pages/renewable-electricity-capacity/). The National Grid cant cope with the Scottish generation as it is so they best get their finger out to be able to cope with the extra else we are just ******* it away
Full Renewable Map of Scotland shows the extent of renewables in the country... Its everywhere (interactive so cant really post an image) - https://spice-spotlight.scot/2024/03/11/renewable-energy-map-of-scotland/
SOURCE
Works out at about 43% of wind renewables for the UK is generated in Scotland... I appreciate the data is 2-3 years old but the rest of the UK should get their finger out
yeah was aiming to show how much worse its going to get with offshore
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Its 100% where is generated when everyone is paying for massive infrastructure projects to get it out of the regions its generated in to the regions that are using a massive amount compared to what they are generating.
Its really not hard to comprehend, the massive grid wide infra is being socialised nationwide when the local is being socialised in regions. For example we don't need the big projects in east anglia to support east anglia (scotland is the same), we need them to support the south.
We could simply avoid the massive grid upgrade costs, which again we are all paying for, if we didn't need to export so much to London.
It doesn't magically get from where its produced to London, but the Londoners aren't paying the full cost, we all are. I'm not sure whats so hard to grasp that one part is socialised nationally and the other is socialised in regions.
The fact there is a different apportionment basis means it triggers a different cost, and as it happens that most beneficially suits those in the higher population but low generation areas.
The apportionment basis could be changed. If the costs of network instead of being shared nationally equally were shared based on a net usage (actual usage - production) you would see a far different share of the costs of the high power large infrastructure projects going to those living in the densely populated areas.
Simply, the grid backbone is larger and needs more investment because the generation is not equally spread. If all regions more equally produced it could well be far smaller than it is now.
You cant get it to the properties in the south without us all paying for the backbone grid
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I presume you have a source that backs up your claim r.e you are equally funding the upgrades because the data posted before disputes that.
The massive new grid upgrades are not yet in bills either, it's private funding with it to be recouped later.
The massive new grid upgrades are not yet in bills either, it's private funding with it to be recouped later.
Soldato
Sorry, can you help me out with that quote because what it states is contrary to what I have seen in relation to standing charges, which are higher in Scotland than the South East of England. Unless "transmission charges" are not included in the SC element?
If they are included in the SC - why is the actuality of the charges in contrast to what the above states?
If they are not included in the SC - where are they paid in a manner as suggested above?
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The paper kind of backup what he claimed, but it clearly doesn't move much, there is an adjustment, but that doesn't mean its a significant adjustment. And I suspect hasn't been changed in any material basis since that date.
I also think its combining the grid and DNO level since its mainly talking about a standard across the areas and looking at demographics impacts it has to include both elements.
It sounds very pre green focussed since it seems to be aiming for localising generation, which of course you can do with gas etc, but you cannot do with offshore wind and solar anywhere near as easily.
I think the whole point of the report seems to confirm there is understanding that the SC split could be viewed as inequitable, but the solutions don't create a significantly better position, at least when that was produced.
Clearly if the SC element was more heavily impacted by where its generated there would be a significantly better position for Scotland.
I dont know if they are in the SC or unit rates. I'm leaning toward unit rates because those are higher in areas away from most of the generation but its just a guess.
I think I've covered SC charges and why they are higher in Scotland enough already really.
Soldato
I know
I was genuinely confused as to how the report states that people closer to the generation have a lower cost than people further away. The fact it draws comparison with Scotland and the South East and then states that the costs are higher in the latter doesn't play out with actual real World experience - that was the reason I was asking as I wondered if I was missing anything.I doubt we will ever agree on it TBH. I believe the SC should be the same for everyone in the UK and, you appear, to believe that it works fine as its to do with costs to supply denser populations vs remote populations (correct me if I am wrong here). I mean, we dont have differing supply costs around the country for landline phones which, I'd presume, have a higher supply/maintenance costs to remote areas than central London.
EDIT - My opinion above regarding "fixed supply costs" is generally only based on essential services (elec, gas, water and communications like landline, mobile, internet etc).
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Soldato
Wholesale price per therm, i'm talking trading prices which will effect us over the coming days
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Soldato
i look at what i pay, not what they pay.......its still way under the capped rate