Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

There is also the idiotic mis management of Ofgem. Not only did their caps forced many suppliers out of business they also destroyed the ability of suppliers to vary tariffs.
I used to often get a higher Sc but much lower unit cost tariff as a high user. Part of comparing the energy market was to find a tariff that suited you.
Now the suppliers are basically forced to all charge the same due to Ofgem idiocy.
Agree. Complete market failure.


British consumer 101. Complain about services. Complain when modernising them costs money. Expect someone else to pay for it.
Whilst true in general, I don't think that's the crux of the argument being made in this case. Standing charges are a fixed levy regardless of income, for something which is an essential public provision (yes its privatised, but still meets the principles of essential public provision). That is a regressive method of funding it, because it means that you can have a low earner and a very high earner expected to pay the same contribution.

We wouldn't entertain the idea of a fixed levy, regardless of income, for other essential services (eg healthcare), so why do we think its acceptable for energy?

Even council tax is somewhat fairer (not much) because there are different bands with house size used as a (poor) proxy for income. How about if we all had to pay the same for rubbish collection regardless of income/house size? That would increase the costs to lower income (smaller house) people.

The energy standing charge is completely regressive now. I think originally it could perhaps be argued that it wasn't, when it only really represented the service connection and meter. But now with all this extra stuff lumped in to the standing charge, which is much broader than just the service connection, there is a huge case to be made that these additional costs should not just be allocated evenly across the entire spectrum of income.
 
Lets see how all the "low users" cope with only being able to consumer 3kw peak.
Rules out electric showers, heating when your boiling the kettle etc.
I'd happily sign up as a single occupancy 3kw is literally impossible for me to pull

pc gaming uses around 500-630watts, meassured on a UPS
a few watts for lighting... woo a kettle or microwave won't even break the bank.

No electric shower and the heating is separate from the electric bill.

I don'[t think you realise how much 3kw peak actually is to someone living alone or even a couple.

I doubt the grid even notices me
 
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I'm on "Octopus Tracker December 2023 v1"
and my rates today state:

ELEC
Unit rate = 23.48
Standing = 47.95

GAS
Unit rate = 5.99
Standing = 27.47


I got a quote for their fixed rate "Octopus Fixed 12M"

ELEC
Unit rate = 22.18
Standing = 62.22

GAS
Unit rate = 6.08
Standing = 29.25


So Tracker looks fine. Is there a better fix than the above only accessible by ringing/twittering them? What is it called?
 
I'd happily sign up as a single occupancy 3kw is literally impossible for me to pull

pc gaming uses around 500-630watts, meassured on a UPS
a few watts for lighting... woo a kettle or microwave won't even break the bank.

No electric shower and the heating is separate from the electric bill.

I don'[t think you realise how much 3kw peak actually is to someone living alone or even a couple.

I doubt the grid even notices me

Lol

You don't think I realise, give it a break.
I don't think your normal in usage. Impossible to pull 3kw? Bonkers.
I suppose if you live like a hermit however.

A decent kettle alone is 3kw.
Microwave is around 1kw for a decent one.

Agree. Complete market failure.



Whilst true in general, I don't think that's the crux of the argument being made in this case. Standing charges are a fixed levy regardless of income, for something which is an essential public provision (yes its privatised, but still meets the principles of essential public provision). That is a regressive method of funding it, because it means that you can have a low earner and a very high earner expected to pay the same contribution.

We wouldn't entertain the idea of a fixed levy, regardless of income, for other essential services (eg healthcare), so why do we think its acceptable for energy?

Even council tax is somewhat fairer (not much) because there are different bands with house size used as a (poor) proxy for income. How about if we all had to pay the same for rubbish collection regardless of income/house size? That would increase the costs to lower income (smaller house) people.

The energy standing charge is completely regressive now. I think originally it could perhaps be argued that it wasn't, when it only really represented the service connection and meter. But now with all this extra stuff lumped in to the standing charge, which is much broader than just the service connection, there is a huge case to be made that these additional costs should not just be allocated evenly across the entire spectrum of income.

Its always the same when you get provisions that are part based on usage and part based on simply providing the service.
The key is to really identify what are fixed costs, what variable and what stepped.
The stepped are often the hardest to fairly share. Eg a stepped cost may be an HR person. 1 person can support a workforce of say 100, but at 101 you really need 2, and at 201 you really need 3 etc.
Some of the electricity costs will be stepped. Depending on scale then some stepped costs can basically be assumed to be variable. Eg meter readers in the context of the UK would be stepped but would mimic variable at anything remotely sensible for cost purposes.

If the costs of the SC were moved to unit rate for example then those with solar despite being high users could pay naff all for the grid being an awesome backup to them.

The electricity network is more than just a meter and a basic connection.
I believe they were looking at what exactly was included in the SC and what should maybe not be as part of a review.

Simply a lot of the costs are socialised. We socialise the whole thing.
I live on a modern estate with all underground and recent wiring, why should I pay to repair storm damage to over ground power in old terrace houses a few miles from me. Etc.
 
The key is to really identify what are fixed costs, what variable and what stepped.
I dont think it matters what type of costs they are. We can choose to allocate costs where-ever we as a society choose to allocate them, whether they are fixed, stepped, or variable in reality. The way the cost is incurred does not have to match the way the cost is recovered from society. There's lots of examples where fixed costs are recovered completely proportionally (eg almost all public services paid for from general taxation).

I live on a modern estate with all underground and recent wiring, why should I pay to repair storm damage to over ground power in old terrace houses a few miles from me. Etc.
This isn't the same thing. Eventually time will come when your estate also needs refurbishment and it will then be paid for by others who live on newer estates that don't need any work. This is just cyclical and everyone accepts this is broadly fair (everyone's turn will come eventually).


The issue with standing charge is that there are things in there now that if it was any other public sector would likely be paid for from general taxation, and so spread proportionally according to income. But with standing charge we are just dividing the costs by the number of households and saying everyone must pay the same, it makes no sense.


I do take the point on solar users - however if these upgrade costs weren't in the standing charge or unit rate, but were paid for from general taxation instead, then everyone would pay towards it and it would be proportional to income.
 
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I dont think it matters what type of costs they are. We can choose to allocate costs where-ever we as a society choose to allocate them, whether they are fixed, stepped, or variable in reality. The way the cost is incurred does not have to match the way the cost is recovered from society. There's lots of examples where fixed costs are recovered completely proportionally (eg almost all public services paid for from general taxation).


This isn't the same thing. Eventually time will come when your estate also needs refurbishment and it will then be paid for by others who live on newer estates that don't need any work. This is just cyclical and everyone accepts this is broadly fair (everyone's turn will come eventually).


The issue with standing charge is that there are things in there now that if it was any other public sector would likely be paid for from general taxation, and so spread proportionally according to income. But with standing charge we are just dividing the costs by the number of households and saying everyone must pay the same, it makes no sense.

It absolutely should matter what type of costs they are if the argument is that SC is too high and it should be charged as part of unit costs.
Maybe its because I worked in costing a lot but its a fundamental part of understanding a business and how things work and what makes sense to change, understanding well your costs.

If your not attempting to fairly share out the costs you may as well make them up.

Of course its the same thing. Right now I demand lower SC as I don't need to renew my wiring. I don't accept this at all. See how it works. We can all take positions of selfishness based on a particular angle.
There will never ever be a perfect balance of costs between SC and unit costs, but at least sticking to whats fixed as SC and whats variable as unit costs means your close to a fair position.

General taxation is just socialising again. Why should someone off grid be paying the costs of providing grid service to those that have grid service?
But again, general taxation seems better to those who generally aren't paying their share and want to move it onto the rich.
 
It absolutely should matter what type of costs they are if the argument is that SC is too high and it should be charged as part of unit costs.
Maybe its because I worked in costing a lot but its a fundamental part of understanding a business and how things work and what makes sense to change, understanding well your costs.

If your not attempting to fairly share out the costs you may as well make them up.

Of course its the same thing. Right now I demand lower SC as I don't need to renew my wiring. I don't accept this at all. See how it works. We can all take positions of selfishness based on a particular angle.
There will never ever be a perfect balance of costs between SC and unit costs, but at least sticking to whats fixed as SC and whats variable as unit costs means your close to a fair position.

General taxation is just socialising again. Why should someone off grid be paying the costs of providing grid service to those that have grid service?
But again, general taxation seems better to those who generally aren't paying their share and want to move it onto the rich.
I find your perspective highly confusing given I think you're an advocate for progressive taxation.

Lets take one component of why the standing charge went up a few years ago - the debt from failed suppliers.

When the banks failed in the 2008 crisis and rescued by the taxpayer, this cost was fully socialised into government books. This means that any cost impacts would have been spread proportionally across the population depending on their income. Higher incomes would have paid more towards this event than lower incomes.

Why then, when a bunch of energy suppliers went bust, was it the right thing to do to say that every household should bear an equal share of this, regardless of income?


Everyone in the country benefits from energy infrastructure. Even if you're off grid, you still benefit from the economic benefit in the rest of the country as a result of us having a national energy infrastructure. So why shouldn't this person pay towards network maintenance?

SC is too high, because lots of broader national level costs have been lumped into it, but I don't think the right answer is to throw all this onto the variable charge either. I think the right answer is to fund it from general taxation so the costs of this national infrastructure are spread proportionally across the population according to income, in the same way as every other public service is.

The fact its privatised is irrelevant, we could choose to collect the required costs from general taxation and pass it on to the network operators. It doesn't have to be collected the way it is now.
 
I find your perspective highly confusing given I think you're an advocate for progressive taxation.

Lets take one component of why the standing charge went up a few years ago - the debt from failed suppliers.

When the banks failed in the 2008 crisis and rescued by the taxpayer, this cost was fully socialised into government books. This means that any cost impacts would have been spread proportionally across the population depending on their income. Higher incomes would have paid more towards this event than lower incomes.

Why then, when a bunch of energy suppliers went bust, was it the right thing to do to say that every household should bear an equal share of this, regardless of income?


Everyone in the country benefits from energy infrastructure. Even if you're off grid, you still benefit from the economic benefit in the rest of the country as a result of us having a national energy infrastructure. So why shouldn't this person pay towards network maintenance?

SC is too high, because lots of broader national level costs have been lumped into it, but I don't think the right answer is to throw all this onto the variable charge either. I think the right answer is to fund it from general taxation so the costs of this national infrastructure are spread proportionally across the population according to income, in the same way as every other public service is.

The fact its privatised is irrelevant, we could choose to collect the required costs from general taxation and pass it on to the network operators. It doesn't have to be collected the way it is now.

The failed supplier costs are one that probably should have been kept well away from the consumers. It was nothing to do with their usage or having the service provision, so yeah thats one that probably should have been paid from general taxation.
Problem is the last government were gash. So they used the contingency on things like hotels for immigrants whilst they pretended to be a fiscally responsible one.

Sure everyone benefits from energy infrastructure, but not equally. Again its socialism which until recently was a very very bad word in the UK when you consider the last 4-5 decades.
Maybe it is now as well.

I mean I thought you were a proponent of smaller government, now you want to let them spend more money. ;)

As someone who does this kind of thing I would say I have found it incredibly difficult to find any relevant information (despite looking on Ofgem etc) that would allow me to make a decision on whether SC included stuff that should be included within unit costs.

Food is expensive, can we move some of that to general taxation. GPUs also, way too expensive, We need to socialise the cost of them.
Once you start socialising where do you stop. I dunno, I just find it a problem that people rush to shout "general taxation" when they need to pay for something.

Its not different to the people losing their minds over the RPI+2% type clauses on phone bills. Which were brought in when people we losing their minds over the fixed increases previously in contracts and when RPI was low.
"But but my bill is going up £2 because thats the contract, but if it was RPI it would only be 50p!!!!111!!!!! rip off!" so they change to RPI which was fine until RPI shot up. Now its reverting to fixed increases, which will be fine until inflation is low and someone gets the £2 rise again.
Simply, consumers never, ever, want to pay, and if its possible to think someone else could be forced to pay more so they dont have to, then general taxation becomes a favourite.
Until they start arguing about record tax levels and wanting smaller government ;)
 
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Lol

You don't think I realise, give it a break.
I don't think your normal in usage. Impossible to pull 3kw? Bonkers.
I suppose if you live like a hermit however.

A decent kettle alone is 3kw.
Microwave is around 1kw for a decent one.
how much stuff do you think one person uses at a time?
I probably boil the kettle about 3 times a week on average.

apart from the PC nothing else is really using anything

Robot hoover will pull almost nothing as it slow charges its batteries.
air purifier is max 22 watts

there's only really the combination microwave oven and the pc that can pull anything, and a PC browsing the web only uses around 130watts max

oh wait I have an Ebike, I doubt it pulls much at once as it takes about 3.5hours to charge a 750KWh battery

only 40-50% of UK households have an electric shower according to google btw, and they won't be the poorest 50% who use almost nothing anyway


what are you doing in a 1-2 person occupancy that can realistically pull 3kw apart from a kettle? charging a car? I doubt anyones who standing charges are roughly 40-50% of their bill has an electric car
 
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how much stuff do you think one person uses at a time?
I probably boil the kettle about 3 times a week on average.

apart from the PC nothing else is really using anything

Robot hoover will pull almost nothing as it slow charges its batteries.
air purifier is max 22 watts


there's only really the combination microwave oven and the pc that can pull anything.

oh wait I have an Ebike, I doubt it pulls much at once as it takes about 3.5hours to charge a 750KWh battery

ROFL your deffo not normal.
Kettle 3 times a week, I manage that every day by around 11am.

How much I dunno, I would say it varies.
I mean I am home alone right now, router, 2x pc, some lights, central heating pump, pulling around 613w but jumps to more like 830w when heating pump kicks in.
One of my screens has my house usage on btw so I probably understand my energy usage more accurately than 99.99% of the population.
If I walk downstairs and boil the kettle thats 3.6kw, if I switch on the oven which I will do soon then if the kettle is still heating then its going to jump to around 5.4kw
Thats going to be a short spike/
You ain't got a 750kWH battery that would be the size of a shipping container.
I suspect its you who doesn't understand energy ;)
 
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Yea, I can't drink coffee and I don't really like Tea, so occasionally I will have a hot chocolate that I could just make in the microwave or on a hob for less than 3kw peak.

most your energy usage seems to be heating pump & electric shower.

not regular normal electricity usage for plebs

I'm ganing on a 12700k + a 4090 + oled monitor that says it can pull 190watts max.
speakers that both have built in amps, idk what they pull but they are only 100watt speakers.
A few hue lights.

router, usb dac

I probably pull 1kw if I have the screen full white, benchmark the gpu/cpu at the same time and blast music at 100% volume

I'm sure I understand energy fine... obviously I meant 750 watt hours


There's almost 0 circumstances where a 1-2 occupancy will pull more than 13amps, and even if they were like not boiling a kettle whilst taking an electric shower I'm sure they'd work around it very easily



Central heat pumps are 5-100watts according to google, and most people don't have electric showers or a fancy heating system
 
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what are you doing in a 1-2 person occupancy that can realistically pull 3kw apart from a kettle? charging a car? I doubt anyones who standing charges are roughly 40-50% of their bill has an electric car

It’s my first year with fully electric heat and solar but I refer you back to my previous post in this thread. My bill is set to be between 0 and ~£150 for the entire year. That includes charging an electric car 10,000 miles per year. We are a 1-2 occupancy household ;)

In the middle of the night I’m pulling 15+kw if the battery (6kw), heat pump (up to 4kw at full power) and car (7.4kw) are all going at the same time.

Likewise, I’ve got an induction hob, that can pull 7.4kw on its own. However, I’ve never seen it pull that much but if it turned on all 4 zones on high at the same time, it would.

My oven can also pull >3kw on its own with its multiple heating elements.

Edit: when I’m cooking I’m usually timing the heat up of the oven and hob to not breach the 6kw output of the battery, particularly when the heat pump is running.
 
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It’s my first year with fully electric heat and solar but I refer you back to my previous post in this thread. My bill is set to be between 0 and ~£150 for the entire year. That includes charging an electric car 10,000 miles per year. We are a 1-2 occupancy household ;)

In the middle of the night I’m pulling 15+kw if the battery (6kw), heat pump (up to 4kw at full power) and car (7.4kw) are all going at the same time.
dood we are talking about people who see an electric bill and 40-50% of it are standing charges here.
be realistic

the whole conversation stems from my electric bill and this response
The important thing isn't how much you use really, its the peak you use.
If we scaled the grid and all the associated hardware to cover everyone using naff all, then your peak consumption would also be limited to naff all.

Maybe we should have a low Sc low peak tariff. You get to pay less SC but your house gets a 13amp fuse.
Lets see how all the "low users" cope with only being able to consumer 3kw peak.


Non heat pump tumble driers can pull almost 3000w, dishwashers also pull a lot at times. Hoovers also... but sure 0 circumstances.
please see above... we are talking about people who have low energy usage and see a 40-50% standing charge on their bill, and how they could easily never use 3kwh peak


kettle+oven is about the only valid answer so far and you could easily work around that
 
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please see above... we are talking about people who have low energy usage and see a 40-50% standing charge on their bill, and how they could easily never use 3kwh peak
And I've just given you a few simple instances when it can happen, it wouldn't even be hard. Honestly you're talking nonsense.
 
And I've just given you a few simple instances when it can happen, it wouldn't even be hard. Honestly you're talking nonsense.
you really think people with tumble driers and dishwashers have an electric bill that's almost half standing charges? get real pal....


people don't seem to get it because they are used to luxuries a lot of people don't have, like dish washers, tumble driers, electric showers, expensive heating systems, I'm suprised no one brought up aircon yet.

shows how out of touch the wealthy residents of OCUK are. if your bill is so low that your standing charges are almost half of it, then you can not be using these things in the first place... think about it logically


how much is a pint of milk/


Maybe we should have a low Sc low peak tariff. You get to pay less SC but your house gets a 13amp fuse.
Lets see how all the "low users" cope with only being able to consumer 3kw peak.
Rules out electric showers, heating when your boiling the kettle etc.
so it basically boils down to, it would be as easy as not using the oven and a kettle at the same time.
 
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My bill will be £0-£200 for the entire year, my standing charge is 49.79p/day or £181.73/year.

The standing charge will make up close to 100% of my bill.
yea because you clearly don't live there, in which case I'd consider a standing charge fair.

cos your just standing and not using ;)
 
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