Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Isnt renewables also priced high, because its a global market?
You putting ideology above reality right now. There is a time and place for putting focus on things like green levies, telling people they need to sit in a dark freezing cold house so in 30 years we have more wind power isnt going to go down well. The kids to have that better future you talk about first have to survive and live those years.
Also temporarily turning coal back on to tie us over until the nuclear stuff comes online isnt abandoning the long term target, its just helping us prop up that bridge to get there.

Green levies are used for a few things and aren't going to be the diff between freezing or not

Green levy costs do not make up 25% of energy bills - Full Fact

A claim made by Robert Halfon MP, who is in favour of scrapping green levies, on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme and repeated elsewhere is inaccurate.

fullfact.org

Most of the coal has gone, people need to get over it. Its not going to happen.

 

[chrcoluk]

Green levies are used for a few things and aren't going to be the diff between freezing or not

Green levy costs do not make up 25% of energy bills - Full Fact

A claim made by Robert Halfon MP, who is in favour of scrapping green levies, on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme and repeated elsewhere is inaccurate.

fullfact.org

Most of the coal has gone, people need to get over it. Its not going to happen.

That sounds like the green levies are part of the SC? which means light users disproportionally pay more.

So what is the exact portion of the bill for green levies?

So in my case I am paying £12.75 on these levies per month based on the annual cost quoted on that website.
My bill for both combined last month was £76. About 17% of my bill. So not just a fail from UKIP but also full fact, thats the danger of using average bills for things like this.
My SC per month is approx £14, so looks like this isnt all embedded into the SC. Although my SC is significantly discounted on Agile.

Regardless 17% is far more significant than 5% VAT.

 

[LabR@t]

Green levies are used for a few things and aren't going to be the diff between freezing or not

Green levy costs do not make up 25% of energy bills - Full Fact

A claim made by Robert Halfon MP, who is in favour of scrapping green levies, on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme and repeated elsewhere is inaccurate.

fullfact.org

Most of the coal has gone, people need to get over it. Its not going to happen.

we have enough for around 400 years.

The UK has identified hard coal resources of 3 910 million tonnes, although total resources could be as large as 187 billion tonnes. There are 33 million tonnes of economically recoverable reserves available at operational and permitted mines, plus a further 344 million tonnes at mines in planning. There are also about 1 000 million tonnes of lignite resources, mainly in Northern Ireland, although no lignite is mined.

Coal consumption in 2018 was 11.9 million tonnes, of which 6.7 million tonnes were used for electricity generation, with the iron and steel industry being another large consumer. The residential heating market is now less than 0.5 million tonnes per year. Overall coal consumption has fallen by 75% since 2014, mainly as a result of government policies.

Facts not fiction

United Kingdom

Coal resources and reserves	​	as at 19.6.2019​
Total resources hard coal	Mt​	3 910​
Total resources lignite	Mt​	1 000​
Reserves hard coal	Mt​	377​

Primary energy production	​	2018​
Total primary energy production	Mtce​	185.7​
Hard coal (saleable output)	Mt / Mtce​	2.6 / 2.2​

Saleable coal quality	​	​
Hard coal net calorific value	kJ/kg​	22 000‑27 000​
Hard coal ash content	% a.r.​	14.0‑18.0​
Hard coal moisture content	% a.r.​	10.0‑12.0​
Hard coal sulphur content	% a.r.​	0.8‑2.5​

Coal imports / exports	​	2018​
Hard coal imports	Mt​	10.1​
Hard coal exports	Mt​	0.6​

Primary energy consumption	​	2018​
Total primary energy consumption	Mtce​	273.5​
Hard coal consumption	Mtce​	12.0​

Power supply	​	2018​
Total gross power generation	TWh​	332.9​
Net power imports (exports)	TWh​	19.1​
Total power consumption	TWh​	352.0​
Power generation from hard coal	TWh​	16.8​
Hard coal power generation capacity	MW​	12 300​

Employment	​	2018​
Direct in hard coal mining	thousand​	647​

 

[LabR@t]

​

Countries by coal reserve

–	World	734,903	100%	319,879	100%	1,054,782	100%
Rank	Country	Anthracite & bituminous	Subbituminous & lignite	Total
Tonnes (mil)	%	Tonnes (mil)	%	Tonnes (mil)	%
1	United States	220,167	30%	30,052	9.4%	250,219	24%
2	Russia	69,634	9.5%	90,730	28.4%	160,364	15%
3	Australia	70,927	9.7%	76,508	23.9%	147,435	14%
4	China	130,851	17.8%	7,968	2.5%	138,819	13%
5	India	96,468	13.1%	4,895	1.5%	101,363	10%
6	Indonesia	26,122	3.6%	10,878	3.4%	37,000	4%
7	Germany	3	0%	36,100	11.3%	36,103	3%
8	Ukraine	32,039	4.4%	2,336	0.7%	34,375	3%
9	Poland	20,542	2.8%	5,937	1.9%	26,479	3%
10	Kazakhstan	25,605	3.5%	0	0%	25,605	2%
11	Turkey	551	0.1%	10,975	3.4%	11,526	1%
12	South Africa	9,893	1.3%	0	0%	9,893	1%
13	New Zealand	825	0.1%	6,750	2.1%	7,575	1%
14	Kosovo	14,238	1.9%	7,112	2.2%	7,514	1%
15	Brazil	1,547	0.2%	5,049	1.6%	6,596	1%
16	Canada	4,346	0.6%	2,236	0.7%	6,582	1%
17	Colombia	4,881	0.7%	0	0%	4,881	0%
18	Pakistan	207	0%	2,857	0.9%	3,064	0%
19	Vietnam	3,116	0.4%	244	0.1%	3,360	0%
20	Hungary	276	0%	2,633	0.8%	2,909	0%
21	Greece	0	0%	2,876	0.9%	2,876	0%
22	Czech Republic	110	0%	2,547	0.8%	2,657	0%
23	Mongolia	1,170	0.2%	1,350	0.4%	2,520	0%
24	Bulgaria	192	0%	2,174	0.7%	2,366	0%
25	Uzbekistan	1,375	0.2%	0	0%	1,375	0%
26	Mexico	1,160	0.2%	51	0%	1,211	0%
27	Spain	868	0.1%	319	0.1%	1,187	0%
28	Thailand	0	0%	1,063	0.3%	1,063	0%
29	Venezuela	731	0.1%	0	0%	731	0%

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

we have enough for around 400 years.





Facts not fiction

Sorry I mean most of the coal power generation I thought that would be obvious
The coal that remains will stay where is though, I would put money on it.

 

[LabR@t]

Globally coal usage is up

Coal production (million tonnes)

World	7,741.6	8,133.4	8,075.2	7,727.3	7,460.4	7,861.1	8,164.9	8,074.6	6,395.6
Country	2020[1]	2019[1]	2018[1]	2017[2]	2016[3]	2015[4]	2014[5]	2013[3]	2007[6]
Laos[7]​		22.5	17.7	14.9	14.6	5.3	1.3	1.1	0.5
North Korea[7]​		18.8	18.1	21.8	32.0	27.5	25.7	25.6
Mozambique[7]​		15.3	17.5	16.6	7.8	7.2	15.8	6.7
Philippines[7]​		12.3	14.4	13.1	12.3	7.8	10.5	7.8
Kosovo[7]​		8.9	8.5	8.4	9.7	9.1	7.9	9.1
Bosnia and Herzegovina[7]​		7.2	7.7	7.9	7.2	6.7	6.8	6.9	13.9
North Macedonia[7]​		6.0	5.5	5.6	5.7	6.5	7.9	7.4
Hungary​	6.1	6.8	7.9	8.0	9.3	9.6	0.1	9.6	9.8
Brazil​	6.2	5.8	6.4	7.0	8.1	8.0	7.9	8.6	5.9
Mexico​	6.5	9.8	11.9	10.4	11.4	14.4	13.8	14.6	12.2
Pakistan​	7.7	6.8	4.4	4.0	3.3	3.4	3.0	3.0	3.6
Bulgaria​	12.3	15.4	30.9	34.5	31.5	35.9	31.3	28.6	30.4
Thailand​	13.3	14.1	14.9	16.3	17.0	15.2	18.0	18.1	18.3
Greece​	14.0	27.4	36.5	37.8	33.1	47.7	49.3	53.9	62.5
Romania​	15.0	21.7	23.7	25.7	23.2	25.5	23.6	24.7	35.4
Ukraine​	24.1	26.1	26.8	34.2	41.8	38.5	60.9	84.8	76.3
Czech Republic​	31.7	41.0	43.8	44.9	46.0	46.2	46.9	49.0	62.6
Canada​	39.6	50.6	55.0	59.5	60.3	60.7	68.8	68.4	69.4
Serbia​	39.8	39.0	37.7	40.0	38.4	38.1	29.8	40.3	37.7
Mongolia​	43.1	57.1	54.6	49.5	38.1	24.5	25.3	30.1	9.2
Vietnam​	48.6	46.4	42.4	38.1	39.4	41.5	41.2	41.1	41.2
Colombia​	50.6	84.3	84.3	89.4	90.5	85.5	88.6	85.5	71.7
Turkey​	70.8	87.1	83.9	99.8	70.6	58.4	65.2	60.4	76.6
Poland​	100.7	112.4	122.4	127.1	131.1	135.5	137.1	142.9	145.8
Germany​	107.4	131.3	168.8	175.1	176.1	183.3	185.8	190.6	201.9
Kazakhstan​	113.2	115.0	118.5	111.1	102.4	106.5	108.7	119.6	94.4
South Africa​	248.3	258.4	250.0	252.3	251.2	252.1	260.5	256.3	269.4
Russia​	399.8	440.9	441.6	411.2	385.4	373.3	357.6	355.2	314.2
Australia​	476.7	504.1	502.0	481.3	492.8	484.5	503.2	472.8	393.9
United States​	484.7	640.8	686.0	702.3	660.6	812.8	906.9	893.4	1,039.2
Indonesia​	562.5	616.1	557.8	461.0	434.0	392.0	458.0	474.6	174.8
India​	756.5	753.9	760.4	716.0	692.4	677.5	648.1	608.5	478.2
China​	3,902.0	3,846.3	3,697.7	3,523.2	3,411.0	3,747.0	3,874.0	3,974.3	2,536.7

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

That sounds like the green levies are part of the SC? which means light users disproportionally pay more.

So what is the exact portion of the bill for green levies?

So in my case I am paying £12.75 on these levies per month based on the annual cost quoted on that website.
My bill for both combined last month was £76. About 17% of my bill. So not just a fail from UKIP but also full fact, thats the danger of using average bills for things like this.
My SC per month is approx £14, so looks like this isnt all embedded into the SC. Although my SC is significantly discounted on Agile.

Regardless 17% is far more significant than 5% VAT.

I think they are a fixed amount per gas meter point from a quick google.
£153 per year

 

[chrcoluk]

I think they are a fixed amount per gas meter point from a quick google.
£153 per year

Wow thats even worse for me then if I take the electric out of it.

My gas bill is averaging £16-17 per month (and this is after the last 2 rises). Basically most of what I pay for my gas is going on this levy. However if I was zero consumption it would be under £153 year, so I am not sure how they ensuring they getting that from every meter.

I used the £153 annual cost on my previous post so the 17% of my combined bill is right if the £153 is right.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Wow thats even worse for me then if I take the electric out of it.

My gas bill is averaging £16-17 per month (and this is after the last 2 rises). Basically most of what I pay for my gas is going on this levy. However if I was zero consumption it would be under £153 year, so I am not sure how they ensuring they getting that from every meter.

Sorry its the opposite oddly its based on elec meter points not gas, which is odd when electricity in the UK gets consistently lower carbon
There was talk of it being switched more or totally to gas but not sure if it was actioned or just a proposal
Its not all the green levy but a combination including the social levy costs

Seems a bit hard to really work it out as most is papers etc who always want to express it in percentages of average bills basically

The levy on the providers is calculated one way but i am not sure if they obliged to pass that on in exactly the same manner, seems vague

 

[chrcoluk]

Light users pre Oct 2021 on good fixed deals, I expect could have had 40+% of their bills on this levy which is mental.

I do think this needs a rethink, at the absolute least the levy should change to a % of bill, instead of a fixed amount, the % would change based on energy costs, so its a lower % when energy costs are higher to keep a steady level of revenue, and with a exemption for the poorest.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Light users pre Oct 2021 on good fixed deals, I expect could have had 40+% of their bills on this levy which is mental.

I do think this needs a rethink, at the absolute least the levy should change to a % of bill, instead of a fixed amount, and with a possible exemption for the poorest.

Simples, turn the heating up, turn all the electric devices on and you wont worry about the £150 green levy when you have a £5k energy bill

 

[touch]

Light users pre Oct 2021 on good fixed deals, I expect could have had 40+% of their bills on this levy which is mental.

Your bill is standing charge + (unit rate x units used).
These are fixed prices so does it really matter what percentage of your bill goes against what actual cost? If you say that the levy makes up 40% of your bill that just means the proportions of whatever else covered by your bill will be lower. So you're effectively paying a lower amount towards the cost of generating each unit you use.
It doesn't really matter because everyone on that tariff is paying the same unit cost + standing charge regardless of how the money is actually allocated.

 

[Mason-]

wasn't there some daft stat that for the price of HS2 we could have fully covered solar installs for all residential properties in the country?

But if everyone’s generating their own electric, how will the energy companies make a profit?

 

[McPhee]

Yep, very clever.
If you think you can't afford your energy bills this winter, set up a site taking donations and selling leaflets and stickers to gullible people. He won't have any problems paying his bills now!

Plot twist: the person who set it up owns a large debt collection agency with contracts with a few of the Big 6.

Imagine

 

[chrcoluk]

Your bill is standing charge + (unit rate x units used).
These are fixed prices so does it really matter what percentage of your bill goes against what actual cost? If you say that the levy makes up 40% of your bill that just means the proportions of whatever else covered by your bill will be lower. So you're effectively paying a lower amount towards the cost of generating each unit you use.
It doesn't really matter because everyone on that tariff is paying the same unit cost + standing charge regardless of how the money is actually allocated.

Well there is a few issues with it from my perspective, and I think if we trying to look at it from a fairness point of view not everyone is going to agree.

I am personally not a fan of SCs either. As I feel homes with less adults in, pay proportionally more SC per adult, this levy effectively has the same issue. But at least with the SC in general the argument is there that some of it is costs associated with feeding the property whilst the levy is basically just a tax. Given its more likely multiple occupant homes will consume more energy (granted its not assured), then a % base charging system seems naturally fairer.

But where I think the current system really falls down and again SC comes into this as well, is that if you have people trying to reduce their energy usage, then as they get lower and lower, the gains get lower and lower, because a bigger portion of their remaining bill is fixed. So effectively the more energy you use, the better value you get from the system ,which is backwards, I agree with the idea presented earlier in the thread where the value should get worse the more you use. As an example going down from 2 units a day to 1 isnt going to halve your bill, at that point it will only give you 27% on electric (SVR) or around 17% on gas. I think we should be shifting more of costs away from fixed to usage based. Especially the levy. Even better just fund whatever is funded by the levy from general taxation and have it state owned infrastructure.

So essentially the current way of funding the levy I just think is really flawed and put heaviest on the most vulnerable people in society. Singletons and the poorest. MKW was right, use a ton of energy and the thing becomes insignificant.

 

[touch]

So essentially the current way of funding the levy I just think is really flawed and put heaviest on the most vulnerable people in society. Singletons and the poorest. MKW was right, use a ton of energy and the thing becomes insignificant.

The point I'm making is that it wouldn't change your costs. You pay a higher proportion towards the levy and someone using much more electricity pays a lower proportion. That must also mean that you're paying a lower proportion towards the other costs and the high user is paying a higher proportion.
If we were to change the levy to a fixed percentage of your bill then your proportion towards the levy would go down but your proportion towards the other costs would have to go up (because fixing the levy percentage of a bill also means fixing the non-levy percentage). So your overall costs pretty much stays the same.

Is it worth changing just so everyone's bills stay the same but we can say it's fairer because the proportions of each bill are the same now too? Seems like a lot of wasted effort to me.

 

[chrcoluk]

Yep, very clever.
If you think you can't afford your energy bills this winter, set up a site taking donations and selling leaflets and stickers to gullible people. He won't have any problems paying his bills now!

Seems asking for donations is going to get people questioning the site, I hope it is legitimate and they get a million plus protesting, not sure why thats a bad thing. But if it is a scam, with just someone ending up getting rich with no real action from it then yeah its a pretty clever scam.

 

[chrcoluk]

The point I'm making is that it wouldn't change your costs. You pay a higher proportion towards the levy and someone using much more electricity pays a lower proportion. That must also mean that you're paying a lower proportion towards the other costs and the high user is paying a higher proportion.
If we were to change the levy to a fixed percentage of your bill then your proportion towards the levy would go down but your proportion towards the other costs would have to go up (because fixing the levy percentage of a bill also means fixing the non-levy percentage). So your overall costs pretty much stays the same.

Is it worth changing just so everyone's bills stay the same but we can say it's fairer because the proportions of each bill are the same now too? Seems like a lot of wasted effort to me.

If it was % based it would, it would mean the levy part of the bill is lower.

So e.g. if it was a 4.25% of your bill then instead of paying 17% I pay 4.25%, my bill would change from £76 to around £66. But a very heavy user's bill would go up.

I think in terms of improving it whilst keeping it low effort, just remove the levy and fund from GT.

 

[touch]

If it was % based it would, it would mean the levy part of the bill is lower.

So e.g. if it was a 4.25% of your bill then instead of paying 17% I pay 4.25%, my bill would change from £76 to around £66. But a very heavy user's bill would go up.

It doesn't work like that. Your bill is standing charge + (unit cost x units used). Levy has no effect on this.
If your usage cost is £100 and the levy is 17% of your bill, you pay £100 and the utility company gets £83 and the levy is £17.
If your usage cost is £100 and the levy is 4.25% of your bill, you pay £100 and the utility company gets £95.75 and the levy is £4.25.
If your usage cost is £100 and the levy is fixed at £50 per customer, you pay £100 and the utility company gets £50 and the levy is £50

Your example is calculating the bill by doing standing charge + (unit cost x units used) + levy. That's not how the bills are calculated.

 

[chrcoluk]

It doesn't work like that. Your bill is standing charge + (unit cost x units used). Levy has no effect on this.
If your usage cost is £100 and the levy is 17% of your bill, you pay £100 and the utility company gets £83 and the levy is £17.
If your usage cost is £100 and the levy is 4.25% of your bill, you pay £100 and the utility company gets £95.75 and the levy is £4.25.
If your usage cost is £100 and the levy is fixed at £50 per customer, you pay £100 and the utility company gets £50 and the levy is £50

Your example is calculating the bill by doing standing charge + (unit cost x units used) + levy. That's not how the bills are calculated.

Why would the utility company get more with a lower levy?

What happens if the levy is £100.

I think you need to explain how the levy is specifically funded and who pays for it and in what way.

From ofgem

The Green Gas Levy (GGL) places an obligation on all licensed fossil fuel gas suppliers in Great Britain to pay a quarterly levy which will be calculated based on the number of meter points they serve.

So supplier pays a levy every quarter based on the number of meters they have on their books. This cost is effectively £153 per meter if spread evenly (including social levies as well), seems they not required to do it that way granted. But clearly their costs go down if they dont have to pay this levy, so at the very least this would lower the SVR as SVR has regulated profits which wouldnt allow them to transfer levy gains to increased profits. What bit have I got wrong here? The levy money comes from somewhere, so you saying it has zero affect on bills its like we have a money tree.