I see what you're getting at, but people voted for Brexit, not because of the absolutely rock solid plan, but because they wanted a different direction, and used their vote to instigate change. Voting for another party is a way of doing that.
Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)
- Thread starter DXP55
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I see what you're getting at, but people voted for Brexit, not because of the absolutely rock solid plan, but because they wanted a different direction, and used their vote to instigate change. Voting for another party is a way of doing that.
Soldato
We're in for a few years of pain no matter who gets in unfortunately.
Soldato
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@Monkeynut
Earlier in the thread this was what I was able to quickly pull up on the cost of electricity a few years ago
Earlier in the thread this was what I was able to quickly pull up on the cost of electricity a few years ago
Would have , could have, should have, isnt much use at this point. Your implication was that by voting for Labour (as the only alternative party capable of winning an election) would be a better outcome than voting tory. So I assume that implication is based upon fact rather than dislike of the Tories, so I ask again, does Labour have a good workable plan to turn this around.
If they do, terrific, I'll give them my vote, if they do not then to suggest they have is just fairy dust in the air.
There still needs to be proof that the change will have the desired result. I'm not one for change for changes sake. A different direction isnt always a positive thing, hence the out of the frying pan into the fire saying. If Labour have outlined a workable plan to turn this around and that detailed plan looks workable and appears to have a good chance of success then brilliant but if they havent then this is all just political flag waving and nothing more.
Your vote is of course yours, and you don't believe in change for change's sake, again fine. However, voting for change for millions of people, is not just political flag waving, and soon it's going to be a mark of people who are desperate.
British politics is littered with examples of politicians promising things and then not implementing them anyway, and voting for change is a good way of keeping those in power on their toes. When it gets to election year, things change in order to keep the vote, and that in itself is an example of the threat of voting for change being a powerful influence, and not just flag waving.
The problem is that the UK has gone so far down the *****er under the tories that its made it very hard for Labour just pull out a plan from thin air its going to take a while for them to sort out the mess. I strongly believe that Labour if given the chance would put some plans together to begin sorting it out. I've got to say that the Tories have done an excellent job convincing people that they are the only government people should vote for.
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Caporegime
So hopes and dreams then.
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Why do some people constantly blame everything on Brexit and the Tories? Brexit is a factor. But compared to a worldwide energy price hike, potential global food shortages, a recent pandemic and war in Europe it's a relatively small one. I won't be voting Tory at the next election and I didn't vote for Brexit. But I'm under no illusion that it will make any difference. It will just be swapping one set of muppets for another. They are all useless and none of them could have altered the energy and food crisis we are heading for. What would have made a difference would have been to start building new nuclear power stations years ago. But that was unpalatable to some of the population.
What they blamed on brexit was beside my point really, it was more the fact that people voted for it in swathes irrespective of any concrete plan going forward, more because they wanted change.
Saying that it will be better under another political party, without any actual evidence of that, not even a plan for how it would be better under the other party, is exactly political flag waving. Change is fine, as long as there is some sort of evidence that the change might work and an actual explanation by the prospective party of precisely how they would go about correcting things would be that sort of evidence. The original poster provided absolutely zero evidence of how Labour would turn it around and that is indeed nothing more than political flag waving.
Now I am sure that some people want to vote for something different just for the sake of voting for something different but for me, I need actual detailed explanations of what they intend to do differently and how their way will actually succeed. Otherwise theres just no point.
Then Labour wont get my vote, I am not asking them to pull a plan from thin air, I am asking for an actual detailed plan which shows that their way will succeed where Tories have failed. If they cannot even provide that then I am not going to vote for them just for the sake of it. Any fool can stand and say that X politician is doing this wrong, or X football manager is doing this wrong, or X film director is doing this wrong but if said person cannot actually explain how they would do it and why their way will succeed then its just hot air. Opposition isnt just about opposing, its about providing workable alternatives. Thats something that many opposition parties seem to forget, including the Tories when they were in opposition. They just come onto the tv in interviews and say how the current government is doing it all wrong and yet none of them (any party) ever actually explain how they would do it and why their way will work.
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As much as I hate Boris and tories (and a lot can be said for our past leaders) I don't believe any party (correct me if I'm wrong) would have made the choices 5-10 years ago to mitigate some of this.
Building nuclear power stations.
Not paying Russia billions for resources
Etc
I blame our system and us.
I wonder how many votes a party would have got 10 years ago if its key pledge was to build more nuclear power stations so we only need nuclear and renewable for electricity?
But we need to pay extra tax for this.
Not a vote winner.
Just like global warming thinking into the future is now no longer a priority. And it will be our downfall.
I also don't see 'Labour would have done better' as an option.
OK, maybe right now, or this winter. But at the end of the day there isn't enough cash to prop up the poor without taxing the remainder so much.
You can say this is what we need to do. But it can only go so far. Is capitalism on its last legs?
The rich poor divide is growing. But the richest are always getting richer. Faster than ever!
I just don't see a happy ending in this. Everyone keeps blaming the tories. But I don't see a viable "out" from Labour either.
Building nuclear power stations.
Not paying Russia billions for resources
Etc
I blame our system and us.
I wonder how many votes a party would have got 10 years ago if its key pledge was to build more nuclear power stations so we only need nuclear and renewable for electricity?
But we need to pay extra tax for this.
Not a vote winner.
Just like global warming thinking into the future is now no longer a priority. And it will be our downfall.
I also don't see 'Labour would have done better' as an option.
OK, maybe right now, or this winter. But at the end of the day there isn't enough cash to prop up the poor without taxing the remainder so much.
You can say this is what we need to do. But it can only go so far. Is capitalism on its last legs?
The rich poor divide is growing. But the richest are always getting richer. Faster than ever!
I just don't see a happy ending in this. Everyone keeps blaming the tories. But I don't see a viable "out" from Labour either.
What if the threat of people voting for Labour caused the Conservatives to implement more favourable policies in order to win that vote back? Am I still waving a flag for Labour?
One particular quote that I took interest in was:
... and voting in that way is certainly an option.
I never said anything about you flag waving, I was referring to the original poster who implied that things would be better under Labour without provision of any explanation or plan as to why.
lol - sorry, I mean me as the guy who's voting for change, not actually ME.
Soldato
Council tax too.
Soldato
I'll save my vote for the OCUK party.lol - sorry, I mean me as the guy who's voting for change, not actually ME.
lol - sorry, I mean me as the guy who's voting for change, not actually ME.
Well thats slightly different to the person that I was talking to, the desire of the guy you mention is to improve things, irrespective of the party involved. The desire of the person I was talking to is for the Tories to not be around, hence my saying that dislike of a party isnt enough to instigate change. It has to be instigated because of solid reasoning and reasoning can only come from a provided workable alternative and that alternative has to be shown and detailed. The "how would you do it differently" question is one that I always wish interviewers would push more at politicians. Opposition politicians are all negativity (this is wrong, he is doing that wrong, she is making huge mistakes, the government has messed up here and here etc) and they never seem to get forced to actually say what they would do differently and precisely how and why their way will work.
Short termism does seem to be the downfall of Western democracies. 4 year terms don't give governments the desire to fix long term issues and instead focus on how they will win the next election, the US is even worse with its midterms.
Long term issues for the country should be handled by cross party committees which lock in commitments from all sides. At the moment it just feels like we are stuck in a loop of Tory cuts, Labour spends, Tory cuts.
Long term issues for the country should be handled by cross party committees which lock in commitments from all sides. At the moment it just feels like we are stuck in a loop of Tory cuts, Labour spends, Tory cuts.