English League Football ** spoilers ** [2nd - 3rd October 2010]

Spunj99 said:
I'm talking about Man City Adebayor, can't you read? :s

The fact you were sad enough to track down YouTube videos (a very reputable source for opinions and totally in-context video clips, honest) proves you've got a serious problem, is it actually a case you're in love with big Ryan and can't get him off your mind? :D

He was on loan from Utd during that 06-07(?) season, so everything he learnt was from the biggest club in the world. :)
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Then what on earth has a player at a different club got to do with Arsenal/Wenger/our fans having a go at Shawcross? Are you trying to compare him to Adebayor, just like Terry & Vidic as well? You've got nothing to reply with and you've randomly pulled something out of your ass. :p That's twice now you've ignored the points given to you and laughably attempted to wander off topic. Keep doing it, it's pretty hilarious actually.

Deride as you will the source of clips lol - there's no denying what's on them nor the point I was making above. Shawcross has a horrible history, and De Jong's slowly but surely turning into a Dutch equivalent.
 
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To back up what someone said about Terry being dirty ;)
Anyone remember the CL first leg in 2008? after Torres got sandwiched between two players and went down. The ball got cleared, ref turned his back .. terry went to step over and then kicked him, blatantly, in the ribs.
 
Greenlizard0 said:
Then what on earth has a player at a different club got to do with Arsenal/Wenger/our fans having a go at Shawcross? Are you trying to compare him to Adebayor, just like Terry & Vidic as well? You've got nothing to reply with and you've randomly pulled something out of your ass. :p That's twice now you've ignored the points given to you and laughably attempted to wander off topic. Keep doing it, it's pretty hilarious actually.

Deride as you will the source of clips lol - there's no denying what's on them nor the point I was making above. Shawcross has a horrible history, and De Jong's slowly but surely turning into a Dutch equivalent.
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You're not getting it so I gave up. I see the lad play every week, you've seen a total of ~4 minutes on a BBC highlights program and YouTube this season and think you're a better judge hence you keep spouting the same crap.

We'll have to wait till he's in charge of the England defence till you'll change your mind so I'll just wait till then. :cool:
 
Spunj99 said:
You're not getting it so I gave up. I see the lad play every week, you've seen a total of ~4 minutes on a BBC highlights program and YouTube this season and think you're a better judge hence you keep spouting the same crap.

We'll have to wait till he's in charge of the England defence till you'll change your mind so I'll just wait till then. :cool:
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I'm not getting what exactly? My comparison was fine above and you started to whinge that Arsenal fans and I kept talking **** about him. You tried to defend him and I offered proof that warranted such a reputation. I then got called sad, you twice then wandered right off topic but hey ho...

So let me get this right - you're saying that said proof isn't adequate to make a comparison because you see more of him. Ha! What on earth does that have to do with anything? Is there more to see (:eek:) or well, the frequency of those incidents is enough. And now you've tried to wander off again by saying he'll one day be awesome? I guess that's alright then. That justifies what he does now.

Shawcross clearly tackles like that because there is a shortcoming of his abilities, has easily shown he can be riled and then malevolently vengeful. One of the articles even said it above, he was frustrated about how well Jeffers was playing. He might be improve, might not. Unless he moves, seriously cuts all that out of his game or the country is that desperate for a CB I don't think he'll be a regular. We all saw what happened to De Jong this week. That kind of player is useless at international standard/refereeing levels.

Edit - even Gerry Francis, Stoke's coach has just said that De Jong himself needs 'to adjust his game a little bit'. If that's for the Dutchman..:p
 
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Greenlizard0 said:
So let me get this right - you're saying that said proof isn't adequate to make a comparison because you see more of him. Ha! What on earth does that have to do with anything? Is there more to see (:eek:) or well, the frequency of those incidents is enough. And now you've tried to wander off again by saying he'll one day be awesome? I guess that's alright then. That justifies what he does now.
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What do you mean what has that got to do with anything? It's got everything to do with it. Your view of him is based on 2 incidents in his entire career (that he's about 1/3rd into) and mine is based on seeing him develop over the last 5 years.

So by your logic, all i've ever seen your beloved Fabregas do is making 5 horror tackles and spitting at some lovely Hull chappies. Therefore its fact that he is a 100% disgrace to the game, 'kay? :)

Shawcross clearly tackles like that because there is a shortcoming of his abilities, has easily shown he can be riled and then malevolently vengeful. One of the articles even said it above, he was frustrated about how well Jeffers was playing. He might be improve, might not. Unless he moves, seriously cuts all that out of his game or the country is that desperate for a CB I don't think he'll be a regular. We all saw what happened to De Jong this week. That kind of player is useless at international standard/refereeing levels.
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The "Jeffers tackle" was, what, 4 maybe 5 years ago when he was 18/19. Show me a young player who hasn't made rash decisions. And you think we aren't desperate for CB's? Er, hello, Upson has a few caps, that says it all. Capello has been to watch Shawcross a couple of times and he's already had 1 call-up. ;)

(P.S, the international break is so boring theres nothing left to do but argue on the internet like cool guys :D)
 
THe problem is, Fabregas hasn't broken anyones leg, nor has he made several shocking tackles and Shawcross has, nor let it stop you that video evidence showed Fabregas was STILL ON THE PITCH at the time Phil Brown claims the "spitting" incident happened, the fact they didn't fine/ban Phil Brown for trying to slur a player is bad enough.

If you look through almost anyones career, they'll have made bad tackles, thats life, some on accident, some stupid, Shawcross in his early career already has more than most and several of his have already had pretty dire consequences, simple fact is that IS NOT normal.

People break legs, its a shame, other players however should think about there tackles.
ANYONE who makes excuses about pace of the current game is doing just that, making excuses, the point of a GOOD tackle is that EVEN IF MISTIMED, without intent, you still commit to a tackle that won't hurt a player.

Jumping in with all your weight on one foot going high is dangerous, it would have been dangerous if the tackle wasn't mistimed, but it was. People should not be making those tackles to start with, thats the entire point. A tackle where you "scissor" the other player, injury causing or not, late or early, mis the player or break his leg, is a bad tackle no matter the outcome, those tackles need to be wiped out, as do incredibly dangerous lunging in tackles.

While the odd kick out at a player, Torres kicks out at people constantly, but I also wouldn't say he ever(from recollection) does anything bad enough to actually cause injury, theres dirty and theres dangerous, they are two different things. Shawcross doesn't have to intend to hurt players, or even intend to foul, to be dangerous on the field with his simple lack of self control or realisation that he has to take into account what can go wrong before he commits himself to a tackle, any player that can't consider the consequences of a bad tackle has no business on the pitch.
 
On a slightly related note has anyone read Robbie Savage's joke of a column in one of the red tops? The guy couldn't make himself look more of a **** if the tried.
 
Spunj99 said:
What do you mean what has that got to do with anything? It's got everything to do with it. Your view of him is based on 2 incidents in his entire career (that he's about 1/3rd into) and mine is based on seeing him develop over the last 5 years.

So by your logic, all i've ever seen your beloved Fabregas do is making 5 horror tackles and spitting at some lovely Hull chappies. Therefore its fact that he is a 100% disgrace to the game, 'kay? :)
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I don't know how many times I can say this, it's clearly pointless arguing with you - but are they precise figures or are you just argumentatively trolling? I mean it's not like you were given more than two examples yesterday or the day before was it now?:rolleyes:

This entire discussion was about Shawcross and De Jong - nobody else. What the hell does Cesc have to do with anything anyway - he hasn't put people out for weeks or more has he now? And what spitting incident? Rather than face the fact of his defeat/shortcomings Phil Brown **** it out of his ass, only to look a right tit. Funny that really..

Spunj99 said:
The "Jeffers tackle" was, what, 4 maybe 5 years ago when he was 18/19. Show me a young player who hasn't made rash decisions. And you think we aren't desperate for CB's? Er, hello, Upson has a few caps, that says it all. Capello has been to watch Shawcross a couple of times and he's already had 1 call-up. ;)

(P.S, the international break is so boring theres nothing left to do but argue on the internet like cool guys :D)
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I'd like to point you in the direction of almost ALL other young players, those that do make rash decisions - but don't have a series of incidents on their cv which have put their fellow professionals out for weeks at least. The staggering thing about it is he's mostly a CB. De Jong and Henry have the excuse that their central midfielders.

P.S., great, he gets called up at 23 because as you say we're low on numbers. Well that means **** all now doesn't it? He'd have largely been anonymous in all honesty if he hadn't done those incidents, I suppose funnily enough he has Wenger/Arsenal fans/me (??) to thank for that eh?

If you want somebody who's young and has made a few rash decisions - then look at Wilshere. Now he's a central midfielder but hasn't put anybody out, he may have misplaced a pass, got a run wrong, over hit a through ball. They're the rash clumsy decisions a youngster makes, not gain a history of quite the horrendous tackler by putting 5 or 6 players out for weeks at a time. He may have made the Jeffers tackle '4 maybe 5' years ago but then what about the the ones after that? Can you still use the excuse of youth on that? Name another player who has that kind of history at his age (23, pushing on 24).

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Anyway, the point I made aages ago was that Shawcross and De Jong are fast becoming very similar 'on paper'. Agree or not? I couldn't care less. :)

Edit - In fact, it appears by defending De Jong Shawcross himself has pretty much answered that himself :

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=830619&sec=england&campaign=rss&source=soccernet&cc=5739
 
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K1LLSW1TCH said:
On a slightly related note has anyone read Robbie Savage's joke of a column in one of the red tops? The guy couldn't make himself look more of a **** if the tried.
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Hmmm is it on teh interwebz? If not, I have no intention of being seen in public with one of those 'newspapers'.
 
i read what robbie savage said today

he said he did it in his day but that today there should be bans for scissor tackles and that ultimately coaches should be coaching their players to not do it.

also he said that Karl Henrys tackle wasnt dangerous, it was stupid, and that he and because Mick Mccathy picks him makes them both dirty etc.

thats paraphrased btw.
 
Greenlizard0 said:
I don't know how many times I can say this, it's clearly pointless arguing with you - but are they precise figures or are you just argumentatively trolling? I mean it's not like you were given more than two examples yesterday or the day before was it now?:rolleyes:
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The other "incidents" you looked up were barely worth mentioning, they happen week in week out across the country - defenders getting one over on a striker thats been throwing elbows here there and everywhere or vice versa.

This entire discussion was about Shawcross and De Jong - nobody else. What the hell does Cesc have to do with anything anyway - he hasn't put people out for weeks or more has he now? And what spitting incident? Rather than face the fact of his defeat/shortcomings Phil Brown **** it out of his ass, only to look a right tit. Funny that really..
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Perhaps he hasn't but probably because the spiteful tackles he's made are on players who have more muscle consistency than a piece of paper, luck of the draw. The spitting incident was left in the hands of the FA IIRC which basically means it was left unresolved? Not like he hasn't done it before eh. ;)

I'd like to point you in the direction of almost ALL other young players, those that do make rash decisions - but don't have a series of incidents on their cv which have put their fellow professionals out for weeks at least. The staggering thing about it is he's mostly a CB. De Jong and Henry have the excuse that their central midfielders.
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They're defensive/holding midfielders, there's not much difference in the number of tackles each has to make, depending on the playing style of the opposition. Long ball game is gonna cut out the middle men etc

Anyway, the point I made aages ago was that Shawcross and De Jong are fast becoming very similar 'on paper'. Agree or not? I couldn't care less. :)
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Nope. They both play 'defensive' ball winning roles, that's about it.

We're basically seeing the annual media furore over tackling which will fizzle out to nothing within a couple of weeks, but the article on BBC news pretty much summed up what needs to change, if anything;

Theo van Seggelen, the general secretary of global players' union FIFPro, has defended his members.

"I don't believe there is a player in the world - and we have 50,000 members - who would deliberately try to injure someone else," said Van Seggelen. "That would not be acceptable."

D'Hooghe also said that if referees fail to spot bad tackles, then football authorities must be able to punish players retrospectively.
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We can all agree on that I think? View evidence after a match and make a ruling then.
 
Spunj99 said:
The other "incidents" you looked up were barely worth mentioning, they happen week in week out across the country - defenders getting one over on a striker thats been throwing elbows here there and everywhere or vice versa.
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Yes gobbledigook it all up into an indiscriminate mish mash if you will, but some players do it far more than others. And as I say again, there are a very minority few, like De Jong, like Shawcross, that just so happen put their fellow professionals out for weeks on end. Repeatedly - they have a history of these types of barbaric fouls. The majority are getting a bit physical, the few that I keep remind you are utterly dangerous; it's behaviour that can't be justified and glossed over 'as a bit physical'.*

Spunj99 said:
Perhaps he hasn't but probably because the spiteful tackles he's made are on players who have more muscle consistency than a piece of paper, luck of the draw. The spitting incident was left in the hands of the FA IIRC which basically means it was left unresolved? Not like he hasn't done it before eh. ;)
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Muscle consistency (which makes as much sense as the arguments you're making I'm not even certain what that means?!) has nothing to do with it - do all players of Shawcross and De Jong's size have a history? No.

Bold: Really? Or should a stronger player know that he's significantly more well built than somebody else and show a bit of restraint? Or perhaps learn how to tackle - there is an art to it don't forget, that involves not seriously injuring another player. Or more worryingly, are you actually inferring it's the fault of those victims because they're smaller. For example it's Ben Arfa's fault he suffered a broken leg simply because he's smaller than De Jong (totally ignoring the fact that it was totally unnecessary to attempt to do so in that fashion?).

Spitting : it basically means that Hull City realised their allegations were utterly false, video evidence proved this, but then going by what you were insinuating above you seemingly don't hold such evidence in high esteem at all do you? ;) **

Spunj99 said:
They're defensive/holding midfielders, there's not much difference in the number of tackles each has to make, depending on the playing style of the opposition. Long ball game is gonna cut out the middle men etc
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Spunj99 said:
Nope. They both play 'defensive' ball winning roles, that's about it.
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Lol what? There are hundreds of other ball winners and DMs. You've chosen to ignore*^.

Spunj99 said:
We're basically seeing the annual media furore over tackling which will fizzle out to nothing within a couple of weeks, but the article on BBC news pretty much summed up what needs to change, if anything;

~

We can all agree on that I think? View evidence after a match and make a ruling then.
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So do you think it's worth it, or not?**;)
 
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