Entitlement what can we do about it.

[StriderX]

Graduate salaries are disgraceful in this country.

The hiring process is nuts these days in that employers will ask for 1st interview, then a 2nd and 3rd interview. Sometimes an online test, literacy and numeracy, then even a "trial period" where the candidate works for free for a few days. So this whittling down of candidates until they find the "best" candidate is surprising for me when the work ethic is generally still poor. It feels to me like we should go back to the 1990s / early 2000s when it was a lot easier to find work / recruit people, otherwise what is the point? Today's multiple-stage recruiting effort is being ****ed up the wall.

Adds a layer of employment for the useless elites or elites-to-be to make themselves feel like they've accomplished something whilst adding nothing of value much like Landlords.

 

[dowie]

I don't think it's "entitlement" for (some) graduates to want >30k starting salary.

I was on a "grad scheme" in 2007 and starting salaries back then were >30k.



19k back then would have been too low for a grad scheme, the equivalent of >30k today according to the BoE is >45k:



If you've gone to a very good university and studied *anything* then that's usually sufficient for general schemes at top employers. Ditto to STEM + directly useful/practical stuff at a broader range of universities.

There is perhaps a more genuine issue that can arise when an employer hires graduates but doesn't really have much of a grad scheme in place and the jobs don't really require a degree + are in fact often done by people without degrees, in that instance why pay more?

In fact, in the case of generic grad schemes, a degree isn't really needed, it's just a used filter to hire talented, motivated people, most jobs don't require a degree, some jobs would be hard to get into without one but it's more a useful thing than an essential one, only a few regulated roles absolutely require specific degrees.

 

[D.P.]

18 years ago I did an internship before i had even graduated paying 40k in 10 months.

We pay our graduates straight from uni with a degree in CS 6 figures excluding bonus and stocks.

 

[neocon]

Wages in the UK are low.

I remember almost 25 years ago people could earn 25k after school/ BTEC , working in graphic design for example. Even after all this time and years of inflation, you still see jobs paying less.

 

[krooton]

Back in primary school my son just about won the 100m race at Sports Day. But because the second runner was only a few inches behind they declared it a tie. My son was devastated that his win was taken away from him and even said there was no point trying to win.

When we chose his next school we picked one that we thought would teach competitiveness. He's now in the school rugby club, a separate rugby club (where I am today watching him play a match) and an athletics club where he excels at short distance running. He's very competitive in everything, including being academic and being in the top groups for his GCSE subjects. A lot of it is due to the school teaching competitiveness.

Sadly that didn't seem to be available in most schools near us. So I think a lot of it is due to the state of our education system.

I'd say fostering collaboration is better than fostering competition. Some of the biggest jerks I've worked with were hyper focused on winning/credit/crapping on others to make themselves look good.

 

[Freefaller]

Back in primary school my son just about won the 100m race at Sports Day. But because the second runner was only a few inches behind they declared it a tie. My son was devastated that his win was taken away from him and even said there was no point trying to win.

When we chose his next school we picked one that we thought would teach competitiveness. He's now in the school rugby club, a separate rugby club (where I am today watching him play a match) and an athletics club where he excels at short distance running. He's very competitive in everything, including being academic and being in the top groups for his GCSE subjects. A lot of it is due to the school teaching competitiveness.

Sadly that didn't seem to be available in most schools near us. So I think a lot of it is due to the state of our education system.

Yes I think you're right - there's a bit of "that'll be ok" culture going on rather than "what can I do to do better, and I'm willing to sweat blood to do it"... now that concept seems quite distant.

Don't get me wrong the culture is a lot less toxic than it was, and that's brilliant - but it's almost swung too far the other way. I mean I don't want it to get back to the "good" old days, where women were overlooked, graduates dumped on from above, and apprentices working 70+hr weeks just to "get on the ladder". At the same time, there are a lot of people now expecting to work from home and to be asked to come into the office is almost seen as a violation of human rights!

It is hard though, to get that blend between "banter" and life, and inclusion and hard working ethic and competitiveness but also getting people to be more collaborative which is also a critical element to succeed in a business... sure in sports or individually you can push yourself but you should have that team ethic above and beyond. So blending self competitiveness and drive with that sense of equitability with your teammates.

I'm not sure where the system is failing them, at primary school? Secondary school? A-level? Or is the the grad schemes and apprentice schemes that are letting people down?

 

[a1ex2001]

Absolutely, but my point is that when you get the same reward for zero effort and failure as you do for putting in the work and winning, then where is the incentive for actually trying? When you've spent your whole life (in education) being taught that you get rewarded just for showing up, it's no surprise that people expect the same when they leave school.

Yes, but it doesn't actually matter, they still get the same reward as the winners.



You're still taking about a handful of people at the peak of their sport who are better than the rest of the world. You already have to have put in the effort and "won" to even get to that stage, they dont just let any Tom, Dick and Harry sign up for those competitions and walk away with $$$$ just for turning up and hitting the ball a few times.

I of course put all my success in life down to the little bits of ribbon on safety pins I ‘won’ in my school sports days lol

 

[Moothead2]

Out of touch boomer who probably bought his house for 9 months wages back in the 80s can't understand why the younger generation is sick of the ridiculous house prices, the cost of renting, **** salaries and out of touch boomers telling them if they stopped buying that McDonalds once a week they'd be able to afford 3 houses and a trip to Disney every year.

Shock.

 

[LabR@t]

Out of touch boomer who probably bought his house for 9 months wages back in the 80s can't understand why the younger generation is sick of the ridiculous house prices, the cost of renting, **** salaries and out of touch boomers telling them if they stopped buying that McDonalds once a week they'd be able to afford 3 houses and a trip to Disney every year.

Shock.

I'm all for higher wages for all, but you do understand that drives inflation, which drives house prices.
The chip on the shoulder must be annoying.

 

[Tom_ed1987]

18 years ago I did an internship before i had even graduated paying 40k in 10 months.

We pay our graduates straight from uni with a degree in CS 6 figures excluding bonus and stocks.

That must be a fairly extreme exception tho, even in tech. I think the average more generic graduate scheme starting salary is still hovering around £30k or so, maybe a touch more in London?

 

[Haggisman]

I'd say fostering collaboration is better than fostering competition. Some of the biggest jerks I've worked with were hyper focused on winning/credit/crapping on others to make themselves look good.

You need both - in a team environment, then of course it should be about the team "winning", but the team members still need that drive to win, rather than just expecting success to be handed to them

 

[chrismscotland]

I graduated in 2008 and never ended up in a "graduate scheme" (frankly 2008/09 was the wrong time to be trying get a job in Finance!

At the time though the starting salary for an Accounting Grad scheme was about £25k which I'd imagine that £30,000 today is probably worth less than £25k was in 2008 with inflation, etc. I guess its not that different to everyone else looking for more money with the cost of living going up.

I'm an IT Contractor now but having spent a lot of time in Banks/Finance in Edinburgh you do come across a lot of grads, both in the clients themselves and their consultancies and there does seem to be a level of entitlement about a lot of them, zero actual life/work experience or even common sense in some cases and often a complete lack of self-awareness.

 

[dowie]

That must be a fairly extreme exception tho, even in tech. I think the average more generic graduate scheme starting salary is still hovering around £30k or so, maybe a touch more in London?

30k is bad though, it's equivalent to 19k 15 years ago.

IIRC the big4 accounting firms were typically paying high 20s back then and those were the cheap/lower-paying grad schemes.

Banks were paying more like 45k + a bonus, tech, at least at a good firm, was easily 30k+

These days Banks will pay 70k base to new grads.

That must be a fairly extreme exception tho, even in tech. I think the average more generic graduate scheme starting salary is still hovering around £30k or so, maybe a touch more in London?

That's definitely extreme, at least in the UK, even in London "six figures", "excluding bonus and stocks" for CS grads would be rather needless and perhaps even a bit naive for a firm to pay here but maybe plausible with a bonus and stock tho. You'd have to ask why they're paying so far above the market - do they have some serious issues otherwise attracting grads?

He might be referring to the US or Switzerland though in which case it's more plausible, especially in the US. I mean they can get total comp offers of over $200k+ if graduating from places like Stanford.

 

[GGizmo]

I think it depends what job it is.

A lot of people aren't built for office work. Back in the day they would have worked at the factory or down the mines.

 

[Freddie1980]

There seems to be a vein running through society where hipeople believe they are owed something, house, job, high wages, cars, gadgets, holiday's.

Have we as a society had it good for so long we now expect life to be easy, constantly looking at bs tick tick lives and expecting the same?

Cost of living: University graduates want higher starting salaries - and many would take up side hustles to earn extra cash

New research by careers platform Bright Network, shared with Sky News, reveals students expect starting salaries to be over £30,000 - 25% more than the current national average starting salary.

news.sky.com

We have had some graduates come into work, their work ethic is poor and they don't won't to do the manual but important aspect of the job where they would learn the most about how it works. Counter to this we had some come through another route has have worked as contractors then into the role and the difference in attitude is massive.

Is it just the UK with this problem are other western nations have this issue? Eastern Europeans don't seen to have this problem but, it's probably because they have not been living as easy as us.

Note. This is not all graduates but more of a reflection on society as a whole.


Making money writing about Lego? I would say he needs to put the toys away and grow up.

I saw this the other day and I just laughed. "I want to be paid what I'm worth", what is his worth giving he probably has little to no experience in the field of work he's looking to get into?

 

[adam cool dude]

Seems to be a few people in here forget what it was like to be young (cue anecdotal "I always had a good work ethic even when I was a kid")....

This "entitled generation" generally have one thing in common - they were raised and taught by the very people now calling them entitled... How very ironic.

Nail on head and this is someone who has a 15 year old daughter. She has far more than I ever had as a child. (I had a very good childhood as well) You also have the social media aspect where she sees people who are very rich and thinks everyone is like this when in our day these people existed but there was no social media platform.

I could ban her from social media but then she will be marginalized by her friends and become an outcast. We do ban phones when going out to eat and during dinner times and have a lights out policy at bed time but society will inevitably dictate where she is at. We can only influence it a small amount and hope for the best.

 

[Hades]

I'd say fostering collaboration is better than fostering competition. Some of the biggest jerks I've worked with were hyper focused on winning/credit/crapping on others to make themselves look good.

A lot of people think competition and collaboration are opposites. They aren't. They are two different traits that can both be encouraged. Being competitive does not mean that person cant be cooperative. This is something else that we, as his parents, and also the school have actively taught him.

Sadly many people think one comes at the cost of the other, which is possibly why competition is sometimes seen as a bad thing in a lot of our state schools. But it's wrong.

 

[Participant]

If people don't want to do the work they get paid for, they get performance managed until they improve or exit.

This definitely happens in the UK to white collar graduates too.

 

[Jono8]

It is because the cost of living is absurd, and it is barely worth making an effort and working, to just get paid a pittance/live in a tiny property and give the majority of your wages to a greedy landlord/bank/oil executive.

You are unfortunately, like many others, looking at and blaming the wrong people for society's problems. The problem is the greedy **** at the top hoarding all the wealth.

Avergae pay in this country is a joke compared to the cost of living... even more so now that the pound has tanked.

 

[EdwardTeach]

Back in primary school my son just about won the 100m race at Sports Day. But because the second runner was only a few inches behind they declared it a tie. My son was devastated that his win was taken away from him and even said there was no point trying to win.

When we chose his next school we picked one that we thought would teach competitiveness. He's now in the school rugby club, a separate rugby club (where I am today watching him play a match) and an athletics club where he excels at short distance running. He's very competitive in everything, including being academic and being in the top groups for his GCSE subjects. A lot of it is due to the school teaching competitiveness.

Sadly that didn't seem to be available in most schools near us. So I think a lot of it is due to the state of our education system.

My school is like the Greek Olympics, only first place gets a prize!