Entitlement what can we do about it.

The hiring process is nuts these days in that employers will ask for 1st interview, then a 2nd and 3rd interview. Sometimes an online test, literacy and numeracy, then even a "trial period" where the candidate works for free for a few days. So this whittling down of candidates until they find the "best" candidate is surprising for me when the work ethic is generally still poor. It feels to me like we should go back to the 1990s / early 2000s when it was a lot easier to find work / recruit people, otherwise what is the point? Today's multiple-stage recruiting effort is being ****ed up the wall.
I pulled out of an interview last year because of this. I had 3 interviews and I thought it was the final one. At the end they said, we call you for the next interview. I told them no thanks and took the job which offered me the role after the 2nd interview.

I am 38, I miss the days you had one interview and you find out if you got the job or not that week. Now its a stupid number of interviews with unnecessary tests for jobs just to complete their silly tick box exercise. Then complain "We cant find any skilled workers in IT!?!?!?!" Well drop the stupid long recruitment process and those wishlists you call job descriptions. Actually LOOK for candidates with skills and pay them well.

Wages in the UK are low.

I remember almost 25 years ago people could earn 25k after school/ BTEC , working in graphic design for example. Even after all this time and years of inflation, you still see jobs paying less.

But was during at a time the market wasnt saturated. Once that happens, recruiters up the requirements and drop the pay.

The world is that comfortable now, there is no reward for winning. As everyone is a winner :rolleyes:
 
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I think a lot of entitlement stems from the resentment over other lucky people that have rich lifestyles from seemingly doing nothing other than being in the right place / right time. Youtubers that went viral for example. People are constantly on social media platforms and seeing perfect insta model posts with their perfect selfs in their perfect houses and cars etc. People believe that they need to aspire to getting to that level and therefore set standards of "basic" living to them, which is having the latest iphone, new car etc. They perceive these things to be minimum requirements to even be living life to them as it's still so far off others.

We also just live in a woke culture now where the shift is towards people that supposedly need to make exceptions for everyone, because everyone is special.

The points being made above about kids at sports day all getting a medal I agree is wrong. It breeds a generation of kids that get used to the idea that everything will be ok, because things will be made fair and I'll also get something even if I don't try hard or do well in something. I've seen it with football, where they won't stream the teams like A and B team even at ages where they start playing more competitively and not development football. To that I always use the analogy of why do we have Maths sets at school? The answer is obvious and should be the same in competitive sports. It harms the development of everyone at all levels if there is too much differentiation between the best and worst of a team/class.
 
The hiring process is nuts these days in that employers will ask for 1st interview, then a 2nd and 3rd interview. Sometimes an online test, literacy and numeracy, then even a "trial period" where the candidate works for free for a few days. So this whittling down of candidates until they find the "best" candidate is surprising for me when the work ethic is generally still poor. It feels to me like we should go back to the 1990s / early 2000s when it was a lot easier to find work / recruit people, otherwise what is the point? Today's multiple-stage recruiting effort is being ****ed up the wall.
I'm going through interviews at the moment. I've had four interviews with one company on top of writing a document as a competency test. If they come back I'm going to tell them to go away as I've decided I'm not going to work for that kind of company. Several others were similar and I had to create a presentation for another and talk them through it. They have all taken weeks, if not months

But one company I am almost certainly going to accept I had two interviews in a week and they came back to me with an offer immediately. If that falls through then another company I am considering only needed one interview but I've not heard back whether I have got it yet (I'm apparently on the shortlist).

Essentially, if they mess me about too much then I'm not interested. I'm in a fairly lucky position of being quite experienced in my role though and appreciate a new graduate would probably be less inclined to be so choosey.
 
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It's a difficult one with the interviews where they ask you to produce something. On the one hand I agree it's taking the mick a bit, but equally we have had people that say they can write code and understand X, who...well... can't at all. So it's often to find out the liars.
 
That must be a fairly extreme exception tho, even in tech. I think the average more generic graduate scheme starting salary is still hovering around £30k or so, maybe a touch more in London?


no, standard big tech.

But it this way, in 2005 when i applied for graduate schemes the pay was 30-65k with a 5-10k golden hand shake. I had 1st class honors STEM degree from Russell group uni. At the time i didn't even think that was great, and went on to do a PHD that funded towards the top of that pay bracket.

17 years later i would expect these grad schemes to have increased a lot for someone with a good degree.
 
I wonder why people are demanding more money now? Can't be to do with the cost of living crisis with the inflation of normal goods and then the astronomical house prices of the last few years. It's definitely they are entitled :p
I do think there has been a shift in culture where less people are willing to go the 'extra mile' in work. But to be fair I think a lot of people have cottoned on that they do that extra bit but then don't get rewarded for it so what's the point?
 
It's a difficult one with the interviews where they ask you to produce something. On the one hand I agree it's taking the mick a bit, but equally we have had people that say they can write code and understand X, who...well... can't at all. So it's often to find out the liars.

I don't think it's necessarily taking the mick at all - like you say, plenty of people who say they can do X, Y & Z, then turn up and don't have a clue. By all means have one interview with a general HR bod to see if they'll be a general fit for the company, get them to do a filter competency test, and if they pass that then a "proper" interview with the team they'll be working with (saves wasting the time of the higher ups on useless candidates), but I'd draw the line at 3-4+ interview stages, you should have more than enough info to make the decision after that second interview!
 
The hiring process is nuts these days in that employers will ask for 1st interview, then a 2nd and 3rd interview. Sometimes an online test, literacy and numeracy, then even a "trial period" where the candidate works for free for a few days. So this whittling down of candidates until they find the "best" candidate is surprising for me when the work ethic is generally still poor. It feels to me like we should go back to the 1990s / early 2000s when it was a lot easier to find work / recruit people, otherwise what is the point? Today's multiple-stage recruiting effort is being ****ed up the wall.

I've noticed this, when i first entered the workforce in Oct 2000 it was a one-and-done interview and they really grilled you with personal and IT tech questions, this was until about 2012. The last job I got which I'm still in I had 4 interviews. 3 of them over Teams with people in the US. And they didn't ask me a single IT question. Which was insane.

And the kicker is that i consider myself an average IT tech but because everyone else is really **** at their job i'm considered some kind of IT god and they throw all the VVIP clients at me :/ :cry:
 
I'd say fostering collaboration is better than fostering competition. Some of the biggest jerks I've worked with were hyper focused on winning/credit/crapping on others to make themselves look good.

They may have been jerks, but I bet they were bloody good at their jobs, I know/knew a few and they certainly were
 
I don't think it's necessarily taking the mick at all - like you say, plenty of people who say they can do X, Y & Z, then turn up and don't have a clue. By all means have one interview with a general HR bod to see if they'll be a general fit for the company, get them to do a filter competency test, and if they pass that then a "proper" interview with the team they'll be working with (saves wasting the time of the higher ups on useless candidates), but I'd draw the line at 3-4+ interview stages, you should have more than enough info to make the decision after that second interview!
About a quarter of the mobile telecoms engineers I interviewed who claimed to have X years experience in Y couldn’t tell me what the most common acronyms stood for, let alone give a 30 second explanation of what it was.

The best one was the chap who’s CV claimed that he’d been lead engineer at Three U.K. for evaluating Motorola handsets for a number of years which was rather amusing as I’d been in that role there at that exact time and had never seen this bloke at all.

It was a very short interview.
 
The problem is, it starts from primary school. If you've been to a sports day recently you'll know what I mean, everyone gets a "prize"/certificate, just for taking part, and it sets a very dangerous expectation that coming second is "good enough".

In the real world, you don't get that cushy well paid job for coming second in the interview, there's no "runner up" prize for failing to impress that girl you fancy, so why teach kids it's OK to fail?

Failing is fine, you've tried to post something sensible and failed. But it's ok, you can try again. Or don't, preferably.

They may have been jerks, but I bet they were bloody good at their jobs, I know/knew a few and they certainly were

I've worked with a few like that, they're generally not great as they spend so much time and effort trying to one up others and prove they're better that they don't actually get anything done.
 
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About a quarter of the mobile telecoms engineers I interviewed who claimed to have X years experience in Y couldn’t tell me what the most common acronyms stood for, let alone give a 30 second explanation of what it was.

The best one was the chap who’s CV claimed that he’d been lead engineer at Three U.K. for evaluating Motorola handsets for a number of years which was rather amusing as I’d been in that role there at that exact time and had never seen this bloke at all.

It was a very short interview.

Oops, busted! :cry:

I've had a couple of "interesting" interviews, both negative and positive, including one for a software company where there was nothing about software, but instead a stupid "problem-solving" question about getting Take That to a concert across a rickety bridge. I don't think I hid my disgust very well when they presented it to me, as let's just say the interview was cut short. For the next interview I had during that same job search I was invited for a chat at the department manager's house, half an hour informal chat, and I was offered the job :cry:

My most recent 2 interviews have both been with software companies and have been as I described above - a generic interview for company fit and filtering, followed by a second more in depth interview with more senior people.

Failing is fine, you've tried to post something sensible and failed. But it's ok, you can try again.

Yes, this is the EXTREMELY important point that rewarding failure misses. You're supposed to learn from your mistakes, reassess, and try again.

If instead you get the outcome you want anyway, then you're not going to do that are you?

Or don't, preferably.
:confused:
 
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He might be referring to the US or Switzerland though in which case it's more plausible, especially in the US. I mean they can get total comp offers of over $200k+ if graduating from places like Stanford.
My first software job out of university (in 2007 in the UK) paid me £16,000 per annum, and there was no annual bonuses of any kind. Five years later, the same company was paying me £40,000, and I was considered a "high earner" to be paid that by this company. I eventually left that company to work for a UK subsidiary of a US tech company and was initially paid about £50K per annum by that company. Two years later, I emigrated to the USA with the company, and was immediately earning about double what they paid me in the UK. Nowadays, I'm earning more than that, but I've definitely not reached my limit for my market value yet, given that peers with less experience but similar work life balance to me are earning $500K+ per year at big tech companies, which is **significantly** more than I'm currently earning.

About 20 years ago, I realised that software work paid the best in the USA, so that was always my dream. The alternative track that I had in mind was to become a day contractor in the UK, earning £400 to £600 /day (rates may be better now), but I went to the USA instead.

Suffice to say, the UK doesn't pay software engineers very much (compared to the USA), unless you work for a US tech company, but even then, you'll still be calibrated to "local market rates".
 
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Sign of the times. Working practices are very different to what they used to be. Managers are more understanding, there is far more equilibrium, people can make a killing off Tiktok. People can WFH and never ever have to go to an office.

You'd probably have to change societal working practices overall. This attitude is a result of that.
I remember in my first job if I asked the manager a question and he was in a bad mood he'd just tell me to **** off, imagine asking this guy for a pay rise!.
 
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