Poll: Eu referendum prediction thread (poll please)

Which way will you vote and who do you think will win?

  • I am voting leave and i think leave will win

    Votes: 163 28.9%
  • I am voting leave but i think remain will win

    Votes: 166 29.4%
  • I am voting remain and i think remain will win

    Votes: 133 23.6%
  • I am voting remain but i think leave will win.

    Votes: 102 18.1%

  • Total voters
    564
You noticed that our current government is trying to get out of the human rights act and that if we hadn't been part of Europe we would already have signed up to TTIP by our government giving US corporations extensive non-democratic powers?

This is the act that prevents us from taking a schoolboy arsonist out of the classroom as enforcing discipline apparently denied his right to education; the convicted rapist given £4000 compensation because his second appeal was delayed; the burglar given taxpayers' money to sue the man whose house he broke into etc.

As Michael Howard* put it:

"The time had come to liberate the nation from the avalanche of political correctness, costly litigation, feeble justice, and culture of compensation running riot in Britain today and warning that the politically correct regime ushered in by Labour's enthusiastic adoption of human rights legislation has turned the age-old principle of fairness on its head"

As for TTIP - that's a European/US trade deal that has been met with fierce resistance across the whole of Europe, including the UK. When it suits remain it will take us 10 years to agree a deal with the US, when it doesn't remain say we would have already agreed a TTIP style deal with the US. :rolleyes:

*For the record, I didn't vote Tory or UKIP at the last general election.
 
If that's your interpretation of what the HRA does for us and ends there, then that says a lot.

And what about our right to FOS, access to information and communication, not to be continuously under surveillance and the 'nanny state' agenda? All policies our own government is pushing - being stopped only by the EU.
 
Norway still pays something like 80% of the amount we pay (per head) for the privilege of being able to trade with EU and they still have to implement the majority of the same laws to retain that status. The chief difference being that they have no say in EU decisions and lack the same level of behind the scenes contacts for business.



/QUOTE]

How much does sputh korea pay for its tarrif free trade with the EU
 

I agree with the sentiment.

Imagine you are an external shareholder in a very large multinational business. You are interested in profits and the continuation of successful business such that it remains profitable for you. You don't particularly care about how the end result is achieved within the business down to the individual details (management structure, hierarchy, who is employed where, what individual jobs are carried out by each person in the business, what someone does day to day etc) - that is left to people who actually run the business and understand their employees, the markets, the nature of the business itself.

However, you do have influence by way of owning a share. Major decisions on the company's direction and it's core business operation can be down to the vote by shareholders. However, the information upon which you base your decision as a shareholder is derived from facts, figures and information provided by a board of directors - yes, with some bias perhaps over which direction they might want to go but on the whole, it's your decision. Oversimplified a little, (business is never simple!) but to make a point, I draw this comparison.

Now imagine that all the information has been provided to you via tabloid and broadsheet media instead. There's suddenly no concrete information upon which to base your decision - and people are shouting at you from both sides with equally demoralising and negative statistics should you decide to go the way which is contrary to what they think. Are you getting the same understanding of the impact of your decision? Are you able to rely on the facts and figures? I'd suggest not; and what would happen is what is happening in most cases: you would be likely to pick one issue that is most important to you and focus on that thus basing your decision on a much bigger issue when that something that actually might not be as relevant as you think.

The opinion that people should not be voting on this matter is quite a popular one because we generally do not understand what the impact of our decision either way is going to be on this matter. The lack of information and the way it has been presented is mainly to blame and the way people's emotions are being played on is quite an underhand tactic in what should be a decision based on logic - not feelings, in my opinion. It's not possible to assess the situation logically without the proper information and the general public shouldn't have the responsibility because they are not accountable - that's why we have people who are paid to know what's what and elected to make big decisions for the economy for us.
 
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I definitely believe a remain vote will be a big smug smile and celebration by Cameron and crew, job done lets forget about it now and never put ourselves in this situation again.

I wouldn't be too sure about that - whether we leave or stay, I think there will be bloodletting in the Tory Party. If we leave, then Cameron will probably resign of his own accord or will almost certainly face a vote of no confidence and leadership challenge, which I'd expect him to lose.

The unknown at the moment is whether there is sufficient discontent for a VoNC in Cameron if we stay - the anger at how he has conducted this campaign has been widely reported, but whether that would translate to a leadership challenge is something else. At the very least, I'd expect prominent Out backers to be demoted or removed from Cabinet - with all the acrimony that this campaign has entailed, I can't see CMD being in a 'forgive and forget' mood ...
 
I agree with the sentiment.

Imagine you are an external shareholder in a very large multinational business. You are interested in profits and the continuation of successful business such that it remains profitable for you. You don't particularly care about how the end result is achieved within the business down to the individual details (management structure, hierarchy, who is employed where, what individual jobs are carried out by each person in the business, what someone does day to day etc) - that is left to people who actually run the business and understand their employees, the markets, the nature of the business itself.

However, you do have influence by way of owning a share. Major decisions on the company's direction and it's core business operation can be down to the vote by shareholders. However, the information upon which you base your decision as a shareholder is derived from facts, figures and information provided by a board of directors - yes, with some bias perhaps over which direction they might want to go but on the whole, it's your decision. Oversimplified a little, (business is never simple!) but to make a point, I draw this comparison.

Now imagine that all the information has been provided to you via tabloid and broadsheet media instead. There's suddenly no concrete information upon which to base your decision - and people are shouting at you from both sides with equally demoralising and negative statistics should you decide to go the way which is contrary to what they think. Are you getting the same understanding of the impact of your decision? Are you able to rely on the facts and figures? I'd suggest not; and what would happen is what is happening in most cases: you would be likely to pick one issue that is most important to you and focus on that thus basing your decision on a much bigger issue when that something that actually might not be as relevant as you think.

The opinion that people should not be voting on this matter is quite a popular one because we generally do not understand what the impact of our decision either way is going to be on this matter. The lack of information and the way it has been presented is mainly to blame and the way people's emotions are being played on is quite an underhand tactic in what should be a decision based on logic - not feelings, in my opinion. It's not possible to assess the situation logically without the proper information and the general public shouldn't have the responsibility because they are not accountable - that's why we have people who are paid to know what's what and elected to make big decisions for the economy for us.



1. I don't care about external shareholders in very large multi-nationals. Your analogy is ridiculous by the way.

2. You don't sound very democratic, no wonder you're a remainer. Who should be voting them?

3. The opinion that people should not be voting on this matter is quite a popular one? popular with whom? I don't know anyone who has said we shouldn't be voting?

4. Don't vote then!


:D
 
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1. I don't care about external shareholders in very large multi-nationals.

2. You don't sound very democratic, no wonder you're a remainer. Who should be voting them?

3. You might want to to go back and look at what I actually highlighted.


:D

You asked why with respect to the opinion that people shouldn't be voting on this. I answered your question with an analogy. Remove the word multinational if it helps you understand it.

Not sure why you feel the need to be overly hostile.

Ah I see you've edited your post. My post was neither for or against so you are attacking my stance for no reason.

And I know quite a few people - both for and against who have that opinion. There's a few in this and the other thread.
 
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You asked why with respect to the opinion that people shouldn't be voting on this. I answered your question with an analogy. Remove the word multinational if it helps you understand it.

Not sure why you feel the need to be overly hostile.

Ah I see you've edited your post. My post was neither for or against so you are attacking my stance for no reason.

And I know quite a few people - both for and against who have that opinion. There's a few in this and the other thread.


Your analogy doesn't work.

'A few' in a forum thread - that says it all really.

I asked you who should be voting, you didn't answer, so who?

So you're not voting then?
 
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Because we elected a government to make these decisions for us. The consequences of in our out are both complex and far reaching and, frankly, too important for the general public to decide.

If I need surgery, I see a surgeon. My car breaks down I see a mechanic. I want to buy s house soon, so I went to a mortgage advisor.

We elect politicians to do our politics on our behalf.
 
Your analogy doesn't work.

'A few' in a forum thread - that says it all really.

So you're not voting then?

Care to explain how?

I'm voting because I'm registered to vote just like everyone else because to do so would be disadvantageous in respect of the fact that everyone has been given the opportunity to vote.

Just because I don't think people should be voting on it doesn't mean I'm not going to exercise my right to do so given the opportunity. That'd be stupid. The two are situationally mutually exclusive events as far as I'm concerned.
 
Because we elected a government to make these decisions for us. The consequences of in our out are both complex and far reaching and, frankly, too important for the general public to decide.

If I need surgery, I see a surgeon. My car breaks down I see a mechanic. I want to buy s house soon, so I went to a mortgage advisor.

We elect politicians to do our politics on our behalf.


The Govt is split. The ruling party is even more deeply divided, so we elected a govt and a ruling party that doesn't know what it wants to do.

It might be too complex for you, that doesn't mean it's too complex for everyone.

I'd say it's that important and that far-reaching that the last people we should be leaving it to is politicians.

They don't do politics on our behalf, they do politics on their behalf and the behalf of the multi-nationals and financial institutions.
 
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Care to explain how?

I'm voting because I'm registered to vote just like everyone else because to do so would be disadvantageous in respect of the fact that everyone has been given the opportunity to vote.

Just because I don't think people should be voting on it doesn't mean I'm not going to exercise my right to do so given the opportunity. That'd be stupid. The two are situationally mutually exclusive events as far as I'm concerned.


But you said people shouldn't be allowed to vote, but you're voting? bit hypocritical if you ask me.

So who should be allowed to vote?
 
But you said people shouldn't be allowed to vote, but you're voting? bit hypocritical if you ask me.

So who should be allowed to vote?

Not sure you understood what I posted.

Having been given the vote, it would be stupid not to vote as it would disadvantage whichever side I'm on.

However I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't have been given the vote on the matter in the first place.

Two completely different situations.
 
I agree with the sentiment.

Imagine you are an external shareholder in a very large multinational business. You are interested in profits and the continuation of successful business such that it remains profitable for you. You don't particularly care about how the end result is achieved within the business down to the individual details (management structure, hierarchy, who is employed where, what individual jobs are carried out by each person in the business, what someone does day to day etc) - that is left to people who actually run the business and understand their employees, the markets, the nature of the business itself.

However, you do have influence by way of owning a share. Major decisions on the company's direction and it's core business operation can be down to the vote by shareholders. However, the information upon which you base your decision as a shareholder is derived from facts, figures and information provided by a board of directors - yes, with some bias perhaps over which direction they might want to go but on the whole, it's your decision. Oversimplified a little, (business is never simple!) but to make a point, I draw this comparison.

Now imagine that all the information has been provided to you via tabloid and broadsheet media instead. There's suddenly no concrete information upon which to base your decision - and people are shouting at you from both sides with equally demoralising and negative statistics should you decide to go the way which is contrary to what they think. Are you getting the same understanding of the impact of your decision? Are you able to rely on the facts and figures? I'd suggest not; and what would happen is what is happening in most cases: you would be likely to pick one issue that is most important to you and focus on that thus basing your decision on a much bigger issue when that something that actually might not be as relevant as you think.

The opinion that people should not be voting on this matter is quite a popular one because we generally do not understand what the impact of our decision either way is going to be on this matter. The lack of information and the way it has been presented is mainly to blame and the way people's emotions are being played on is quite an underhand tactic in what should be a decision based on logic - not feelings, in my opinion. It's not possible to assess the situation logically without the proper information and the general public shouldn't have the responsibility because they are not accountable - that's why we have people who are paid to know what's what and elected to make big decisions for the economy for us.

This is accurate. But I believe the best response is to educate ourselves so that we CAN make informed decisions, not to abrogate the decisions themselves. And you may respond that with something as complex as this it is not possible to be fully informed and I would concede that. However, I would say that it is possible to become sufficiently informed to make a reasonably supportable decision. Furthermore, the alternative to people voting is to have the electorate place more power in the hands of their representatives than I am comfortable giving. The attitude of "we know best for the hoi polloi" is a very dangerous one that already takes root very easily in the halls of power. Even more so if the hoi polloi agree with it.
 
No 2 here

Chuckle still at the HRA argument - its as if it'll turn into a Mad Max wilderness on the human rights front if we leave.
 
Not sure you understood what I posted.

Having been given the vote, it would be stupid not to vote as it would disadvantage whichever side I'm on.

However I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't have been given the vote on the matter in the first place.

Two completely different situations.


I'd say you should stick to your assertion that you shouldn't vote.

So who should vote then? You keep dodging this question 3 times so far...


So to sum up, you shouldn't be allowed to vote but you're going to anyway (no-one is forcing you - you sound opportunistic if not hypocritical), but you can't tell me who should vote instead...


:D
 
I'd say you should stick to your assertion that you shouldn't vote.

So who should vote then? You keep dodging this question 3 times so far...


So to sum up, you shouldn't be allowed to vote but you're going to anyway (no-one is forcing you - you sound opportunistic if not hypocritical), but you can't tell me who should vote instead...


:D

I think he's saying nobody should be voting on this - it shouldn't be down to a public vote
 
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