European Grand Prix 2011, Valencia Street Circuit - Race 8/19

I have explained how they are related. You cant allow developing technology without allowing developing rules to regulate them.

So what you are suggesting is a grey area actually be written into the rules around rule changes! Yeah, like thats going to work!

Can you clear one thing up for me though, in your view is the Q mapping and off throttle mapping a rule that is aimed to solely slow down RBR and artificially affect the championship, or a rule change that effects 11 of the 12 teams on the grid? I'm confused as to where you stand on this.
 
Of course you can, as development is only lowed within the rules.
It will affect 11 teams, but I do think it has a lot to do with viewer figures for qualifying.
As I have also said I think it will fail as there I smuch more to RBR than just one area.

What do you mean grey areas written in?

Anyway imbrued now.
I'll await for other sports to follow and change rules half way through the season and see how fans react. Trouble is f1 is to complicated for most fans and most people only care about the racing and will assume the q-maps and OTBD was always against the rules.
 
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AcidHell2 said:
It will affect 11 teams, but I do think it has a lot to do with viewer figures for qualifying.
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Please explain? You think its to do with slowing RBR to stop them dominating qualifying, yet also state it affects 11 teams? There is a grey area in your argument. As it is mid season however, I will only allow you to clarify it, not actually change it.
 
Skeeter said:
But what if the rules don't cover the new development? A brand new part that nobody has ever seen before?
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Then it's allowed exactly like f-duct and DD, you do know these are very limited though as the rules are so tight and don't just include specifics but also general size, weight, curvatures and other such things.
 
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Skeeter said:
Please explain? You think its to do with slowing RBR to stop them dominating qualifying, yet also state it affects 11 teams? There is a grey area in your argument. As it is mid season however, I will only allow you to clarify it, not actually change it.
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:rolleyes:
What's grey about it, fia think it will affect some teams more than others, simple really.
 
So someone could turn up with anything, and providing its not regulated against, its allowed to run? The FIA aren't allowed to say no, even if its incredibly dangerous?

Remember all those wings that used to sprout out of cars on Fridays. Arrows and Jordan ran them in Monaco practice sessions, and BMW has those massive stick up things on the front in Canada a few years back. The FIA said no to them and changed the rules accordingly. Nobody complained then. Are you suggesting they should have been allowed simply because there wasn't a rule saying they were banned, and the FIA couldn't write one?
 
It will regulated this, have a read of the rules. You can't just put new tech on as it still has to fit in with the thousands of other rules. The days when you could add another two wheels or a fan are long gone. The rules are so restricted that such a device you are talking about is not possible.
 
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Skeeter said:
So you think it affects all 11 teams, and therefore isn't aimed at altering the championship?
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Did you read?
It will affect some teams more than others. Two main reason. 1 the state of the q-map and 2nd the fuel efficiency of the engine they are using. The Renault engine is the most fuel efficient and as such can gain the most. However Renault should be less affected than others due to front exit exhaust which generated the downforce much more centralised than in other teams that generate the downforce on the rear axle line.
 
Yes, but the only reason those devices, or fans, or 6 wheels are not allowed is because someone turned up with them on and the FIA said "No", and changed the rules to ban them. Some of the bans took effect immediately, some at the end of the season.

Your forgetting that cars are not allowed onto a track at a race weekend until they have passed scruteniering. The fact those devices (specifically the wing things) appeared on track means they were within the rules as they stood at that time. The fact they were then banned means the FIA have changed the rules with immediate effect.

A large proportion of current F1 rules are there as they were implimented in response to something a team stuck on or in their cars. This has been going on forever.

The only reason people are suddenly giving a monkies about this latest in season rule change is because they have got (or been fed, I still blame the media partly) the opinion that it is somehow a direct effort by the FIA to slow down the RBRs to stop Vettel winning the championship to soon. Its not. Its simply the FIA changing the rules to stop something they are unhappy with. It is simply co-incidence that the team who are perceived to have benifitted most from this technology are the team who are out in front. I can guarantee if this was something that Force India or Willliams had developed, and it meant they were getting 7th and 8th rather than 9th or 10th, nobody would care.
 
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I think you find we would. As it is the banning of a rule mid season.

Do you have any idea how strict the rules are these days. Do you know how few loop holes there are.

Do you understand that f-duct and DD where far more in the grey area. Than either q-maps or EBD.

Do you honestly think fia are constant with Theo re punishments/rules. All though I do think 98% of it is down to incompetence rather than an agenda.
 
AcidHell2 said:
I think you find we would. As it is the banning of a rule mid season.
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So why did we not have hundreds of posts in tens of threads about the wing mirror rule change, or the BMW front stick up wings change, or any of the other mid season changes that have been made?

Do you have any idea how strict the rules are these days. Do you know how few loop holes there are.
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Well there clearly are still enough for the teams to exploit.

Do you understand that f-duct and DD where far more in the grey area. Than either q-maps or EBD.
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I didn't think there were any grey areas with the f duct or DD? The teams protested, the FIA said they were legal, the rules remained completely unchanged.

Do you honestly think fia are constant with Theo re punishments/rules. All though I do think 98% of it is down to incompetence rather than an agenda.
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No, I dont think the FIA are consistent. There have been some majorly controversial rule changes in the past (Renault Mass Dampers spring to mind), but I dont think this is one of them. Its a change the FIA wish to impliment, and they feel it can be implimented at this time rather than wait to the end of the season, so have done.
 
dannyjo22 said:
Well yes we said that because we didn't know the rules would change did we.
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I said this before any rule changes were announced.
The last 2 races - Vettel has been very lucky to get a win and a 2nd place. By rights, Vettel should not have even have got a podium, but his fantastic form is beginning to flatter the 3rd best car on the grid. Vettel is making the RBR look better than it is.

When Vettel was winning in the best car, I didn't think much of him. But now that he is beating Hamilton, Alonso, Button (all World Champions), in a slower car, it is difficult to argue that Vettel isn't doing a fantastic job.

In saying all of the above, I do not believe that any driver (and that includes) Vettel can maintain top form throughout an entire season. At some stage this season we shall see a dip and we shall more than likely see Webber finish ahead of Vettel in a few races (based on form and no extraordinary incidents).
 
I'd love to be a part of these FIA Tea and Crumpet sessions where they all cackle and roar with laugher at the outrage that will ensue across the internet when they plot to give one driver more penalties than another, change some rules or otherwise act in an evil and despicable way.

I would much prefer that the rules stay the same for a full season. However at the end of the day every team knows that rules can, have, and will change at the whim of the FIA for whatever reason they dream/conjure up. It might not seem fair, and it may well seem like they are doing it only to spite one team at any given time, but the rules are the rules and everyone knows they CAN change if the FIA want to.

The teams are more than welcome to take their ball home if they don't want to play any more but they all keep coming back despite the evil empire doing its dastardly best to keep them down.

We still don't know what affect this is going to have. Even after Q3 we still aren't going to know as its just one race. If in 5 races time Vettel hasn't been on pole again then for sure the internet warriors will be up in arms that "their" F1 is a fraud being manufactured by the system. I doubt thats going to happen though and look forward to the FIA being called inept in a few weeks time if Vettel continues to score large points after the FIA apparently tried and failed to take him down.

If they make a change which people THINK will harm the fast team and it does they are conspiring.
If they make a change which people THINK will harm the fast team and it doesn't they are stupid.
Gotta love those options.
 
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sunama said:
I said this before any rule changes were announced.
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It's not a rule change "You are not allowed to change anything else on the car to change performance once in Parc Ferme
FIA has judged these practises to be against the existing rules.


So in short most teams have been breaking the rules and the FIA let it go on till they took the pee.
 
Skeeter said:
Some typically blinkered views of F1 from dannyjo22. The 'Brawn' diffuser (didn't 4 teams have double diffusers, and then a number of other teams build them). So I assume you are just convineiently ignoring the fact that most of the top teams have EBD and Quali engine maps as it would ruin your "they are only penalising RBR" argument?

F1 has always been about the FIA pegging back developments made by teams. The EBDs are being banned at the end of the season, just like the F duct and the DD and loads of other stuff. The difference with the off throttle mappings and quali maps is they are just software. There is no complete redesign needed of the cars to implement this, therefore it can be implemented immediately. The FIA are applying restrictions at the pace that matches the speed at which they can be removed. If the ban means a redesign and re-homologation of the entire tub, then clearly this will have to wait a while, or till the end of the season. If the change is to 'not plug a laptop in after Qualifying' then it hardly needs months of time to implement does it...
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Did Newey make the point that his car is set up around the EBD. Haven't many experts made the point that the whole rake of the RB is set up for this system. That is why I'm thinking this is mostly directed at Red bull as most expect them to suffer the most.

gord said:
So other people aren't allowed to hope Vettel DNFs, but you're allowed to constantly shout about the McLarens DNF?
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I was joking, like you I don't always use smilies. In many threads over the last few years I've said I hate it when people wish failures on other drivers just so their own fav can get back in the race.

I'd prefer drivers I follow to beat all on the track. I was kidding no offence intended.

Have a smiley :)

This bit "Hamilton to DNF from the lead of the GP due to a reliability issue" was a prediction not a hope or wish. I just think the way his luck is going that what will happen.



Skeeter said:
dannyjo22 is allowed to have any opinion he makes up, so long as it disagrees with everyone else and allows him to remain centre of attention.

If I remember he used to think the flexi RBR wing was totally illegal and the Red Bulls should be banned from F1 forever...
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Then actually debating the point, other people made me see that there is no rule that I incorrectly thought existed about the wing flexing x amount. Only in the reference plane to the bottom of the car.

I was wrong, I come to this boards to debate these points and hopefully learn and be corrected. Someone elses decent argument made me see flaws in my own thinking. Isn't that the point of using a forum rather than sticking to your guns no matter what?

I get it, you don't like me or my views. Fair enough but your bordering on obsessed. Use the ignore feature. Center of attention my backside, I just like posting in threads on F1 it's not like I'm even close to being top poster in any of the threads. It's you that seems to want to make this personal with an axe to grind.

Probably because I rooted for Alonso and he mades you foam like a rabid dog ;)
 
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Todge said:
just means you have no soul :p
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:D

I'm no fan or his personality, I battled with Sunama for a while on what a horrible little **** his is. I'm just a fan of his on track abilities, apart from his sometimes iffy overtaking ability.

Hamiltons race craft mixed with Alonso's brain and guile would make for me the perfect race driver. Spain would love a racer who was clever and black ;)
 
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