Euthanasia need to be considered in UK?

[Chuk_Chuk]

This video explores how the slippery slope will expand the as time goes on and the barrier to to qualify for assisted suicide will be eroded.

As gizmo said above in Canada a women was consistently offered the option to for assisted suicide by doctors and nurses as a fix to the situation.

The most tragic story is a 24 year old who goes through this procedure in Belgium due to long term depression.

 

[Mr Jack]

Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

For the first time, the annual report delved into race and ethnic data of those who underwent assisted dying.

www.bbc.co.uk

Well this seems like excellent news, many more people getting a good death instead of prolonged suffering:

Nearly all of those who requested assisted dying - around 96% - had a foreseeable natural death. The remaining 4% were granted euthanasia due to having a long-term chronic illness and where a natural death was not imminent.​

Remember that the other 95.3% still died of something, just that most of them died in a worse way.

In my opinion euthanasia is a quick fix for a situation that should be dealt with by better palliative care.

Palliative care isn't magic. People will still die in misery, pain and suffering that can last for months or years. Nor can palliative care do anything for people who choose death over things like dementia; who would rather go out whilst they are still themselves. Besides, the UK already has world leading end of life care; the idea that there's a big improvement to be found seems to be wishful thinking.

The knock on effect of this cheap alternative is now palliative care isn't likely to improve. When you become an inconvenience to look after there is nothing to stop services being withdrawn from you so suddenly were the staff took you into the tv room for the day now they 'forget you' until midday, and if you eventually say something they reply "Well Sir, if you're really unhappy then have you thought about euthanasia?".

This just seems like run of the mill fear-mongering to me. Besides from the blatantly obvious point that there is no economic advantage to care homes in encouraging their paying clients to opt out, freeing up resources from inflicting late life suffering on people who don't want it should allow more to be spent on palliative care for the rest.

 

[Mr Jack]

This video explores how the slippery slope will expand the as time goes on and the barrier to to qualify for assisted suicide will be eroded.

Good. It's being set way too high to start with.

As gizmo said above in Canada a women was consistently offered the option to for assisted suicide by doctors and nurses as a fix to the situation.

There have been a handful of cases in Canada, most of which involved one person (who was dismissed as a result of their behaviour), and none of which actually involve people underwent euthanasia as a result. No system will ever prevent every abuse, there will always be bad actors, but the idea that these rare events justify condemning tens of thousands of people a year to months of suffering is an absurdly mismatched mentality.

The most tragic story is a 24 year old who goes through this procedure in Belgium due to long term depression.

Which case exactly are you talking about? Yes, these incredible rare cases are tragic - it is tragic that anyone should be living for years in a state of such misery that they would choose death instead - but no-one who has brought them up has been able to explain why it would be better to condemn these people to life long suffering, or why the multi-year process they've been through before being permitted to go ahead with euthanasia was insufficient.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Good. It's being set way too high to start with.

Out of curiosity if a person attempts suicide do you think they should be left to die?

There have been a handful of cases in Canada,

Where are you getting this stat from?

How do you know it is rare? How do you know that people aren’t simply being railroaded to assisted suicide, whether intentionally or unintentionally? An example from Canada is that for some cases suicide was far faster than getting treatment.

Whether people want to admit it or not the health system is run on a cost benefit analysis and it suicide is seen as the cheap option it will be pushed for.

Which case exactly are you talking about?

Watch the video.

 

[Hagar]

Out of curiosity if a person attempts suicide do you think they should be left to die?


Where are you getting this stat from?

How do you know it is rare? How do you know that people aren’t simply being railroaded to assisted suicide, whether intentionally or unintentionally? An example from Canada is that for some cases suicide was far faster than getting treatment.

Whether people want to admit it or not the health system is run on a cost benefit analysis and it suicide is seen as the cheap option it will be pushed for.


Watch the video.

Cost /benefit is not what you are trying to imply. Nothing to do with cheapness but it compares the cost of a treatment or drug to the benefits that it will give on several scales and it is administered by NICE not individual clinicians.
The six month criteria, the two doctors and the judge confirming will all act against its use in excess unless amended by Parliament.

 

[Koalaboy]

Hot Take: If someone wishes to die, and they are not given the choice, that's akin to slavery.

"You will stay alive, and have to fit into the demands of society, no matter the cost to yourself. We have decided for you"

 

[Mr Jack]

Out of curiosity if a person attempts suicide do you think they should be left to die?

No, I think they should get help because someone who attempts suicide is in crisis and, in most cases, if they are helped past that crisis then they will no longer wish to die. The oft-repeated assertion that "suicide is a cry for help" may not be entirely accurate but it certainly contains a lot of truth. This is very different from someone who has a settled desire not to go through continued suffering.

How do you know it is rare? How do you know that people aren’t simply being railroaded to assisted suicide, whether intentionally or unintentionally? An example from Canada is that for some cases suicide was far faster than getting treatment.

Because despite the many, many posts in this thread from opponents of euthanasia and all the many articles written by people opposed none of them have presented anything more than a handful of rare cases, most of which resulted in disciplinary action for the people involved (as they should). I don't see any reason to spend a lot of time on such a flimsily evidenced claim. If you want to convince others that this is happening then you need to present evidence for your claim; it's not remotely convincing to go "well you can't prove it's not".

Whether people want to admit it or not the health system is run on a cost benefit analysis and it suicide is seen as the cheap option it will be pushed for.

Yes, cost-benefit. The benefits being discussed are to people's health and wellbeing. Huge numbers of doctors, nurses and carers aren't going to transform into Doctor Death against all their years of training and/or vocation because euthanasia is legalised.

Watch the video.

No. This is a text based discussion forum, if you want a response to your claim make it yourself. I'm not taking however long to watch some video so I can guess what exactly you think I should be reacting to. I also note that you, like everyone else, failed to present an argument as to why this is supposed to be bad. So, why would it be better to condemn these people to life long suffering? Why is the multi-year process they've been through before being permitted to go ahead with euthanasia not sufficient?

 

[413x]

I just read the number quoted, shocking.

All disabled organisations are against this.

In my opinion euthanasia is a quick fix for a situation that should be dealt with by better palliative care.

The knock on effect of this cheap alternative is now palliative care isn't likely to improve. When you become an inconvenience to look after there is nothing to stop services being withdrawn from you so suddenly were the staff took you into the tv room for the day now they 'forget you' until midday, and if you eventually say something they reply "Well Sir, if you're really unhappy then have you thought about euthanasia?".

Sometimes palliative care is not enough.
When someone is on deaths door in pain from stage 4 cancer. There's nothing that can be done. Let those people go

Let's face it. Money is short. It's not going to be spent on palliative care.

You have 6 months to live.
Even if you are a very edge case and are coerced or whatever.. You're gonna die fairly soon. You probably have no quality of life anyway.


Really. I get why they are pushing this article in the UK.. Its topical. But for me it just makes me applaud Canada

 

[413x]

Hot Take: If someone wishes to die, and they are not given the choice, that's akin to slavery.

"You will stay alive, and have to fit into the demands of society, no matter the cost to yourself. We have decided for you"

It's torture imo.

There's not many things I'm passionate about. But this is one of them.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Cost /benefit is not what you are trying to imply. Nothing to do with cheapness but it compares the cost of a treatment or drug to the benefits that it will give on several scales and it is administered by NICE not individual clinicians.

Erm okay. Tell me more about what I’m trying to imply because I have no idea what I’m supposed to be implying?

The six month criteria, the two doctors and the judge confirming will all act against its use in excess unless amended by Parliament.

Great idea it will be eroded over time as people become more indifferent to suicide.

No, I think they should get help because someone who attempts suicide is in crisis and, in most cases, if they are helped past that crisis then they will no longer wish to die. The oft-repeated assertion that "suicide is a cry for help" may not be entirely accurate but it certainly contains a lot of truth. This is very different from someone who has a settled desire not to go through continued suffering.

interesting, so you think those people haven’t thought it through properly but believe those who go through assisted suicide have truly given it thought. Okay.

Because despite the many, many posts in this thread from opponents of euthanasia and all the many articles written by people opposed none of them have presented anything more than a handful of rare cases, most of which resulted in disciplinary action for the people involved (as they should). I don't see any reason to spend a lot of time on such a flimsily evidenced claim. If you want to convince others that this is happening then you need to present evidence for your claim; it's not remotely convincing to go "well you can't prove it's not".

So I asked how you know it is rare and your response is “It is rare because people have presented a handful of rare cases”. So nobody actually knows if it rate or common. Cool.

I don’t try to convince anyone of anything (it’s a waste of time) I present information and people are free to make of it what they will.

No. This is a text based discussion forum, if you want a response to your claim make it yourself. I'm not taking however long to watch some video so I can guess what exactly you think I should be reacting to. I also note that you, like everyone else, failed to present an argument as to why this is supposed to be bad. So, why would it be better to condemn these people to life long suffering? Why is the multi-year process they've been through before being permitted to go ahead with euthanasia not sufficient?

great post except I didn’t make a claim I gave a summary of the video. If you want more details go watch the video.

 

[Mr Jack]

great post except I didn’t make a claim I gave a summary of the video. If you want more details go watch the video.

Still no, and since you have no intention or interest in making an argument of your own I don't see any point responding to you further.

 

[Freakbro]

interesting, so you think those people haven’t thought it through properly but believe those who go through assisted suicide have truly given it thought. Okay.

Yes, precisely. A lot of suicides are impulsive moments at a time of short term crisis, though obviously long term factors can lead to the final break point. There's also a strong correlation about suicide and having access to easy methods eg : guns.

Research (from suicide survivors) show most attempts happen within 3hrs of the thought to take action, and afterwards they wish they hadn't tried whereas assisted dying is going to take months (if not longer) of process to keep confirming you want it to happen.

As someone who has had suicidal crises and have just seen a friend die an agonising death from mesothelioma (even with superb pallative care) they don't seem remotely similar circumstances to me.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

Yes, precisely. A lot of suicides are impulsive moments at a time of short term crisis,

I was more than happy to just accept his answer but since you decided to elaborate.

Erm what? Short term crisis? That doesn’t sound right what length of time defines a short term crisis?

Even your summary of the research sounds flawed. Them attempting it after 3 hours of the thought coming to mind assumes that they have never thought about it prior to that thought. It could be discussed in the actual research but it is lacking in your summary.

Edit: also I did notice your use of the word “a lot” and “most”. Should I assume that for those don’t fall under the ones you’ve described, that You think they have thought through it properly?

 

[Freakbro]

I was more than happy to just accept his answer but since you decided to elaborate.

Erm what? Short term crisis? That doesn’t sound right what length of time defines a short term crisis?

Even your summary of the research sounds flawed. Them attempting it after 3 hours of the thought coming to mind assumes that they have never thought about it prior to that thought. It could be discussed in the actual research but it is lacking in your summary.

Yes, I've probably summarised the situation badly, but the point was you trying to equate suicide and assisted dying, when they aren't in the same ballpark imo. "Most/The vast majority/nearly all" suicides are linked with mental disorders like schizophrenia, depression, substance abuse with socio-economic triggers leading to a crisis that culmunates in a suicide attempt. That is nothing like assisted dying.

If you want some more detail, this article is with the head of a foundation for suicide prevention and links to other studies

What many people get wrong about suicide

Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology, culture, science, the climate crisis, money...

www.vox.com

Edit: also I did notice your use of the word “a lot” and “most”. Should I assume that for those don’t fall under the ones you’ve described, that You think they have thought through it properly?

Maybe so, but the use of 'most' is because if you lazily say all then some pedantic person would highlight one case to try and prove your point wrong

 

[pastymuncher]

@Chuk_Chuk @GGizmo What gives you or anybody else the right to deny someone choosing a pain free death in a dignified manner rather than suffering in agony, possibly for months, wetting and messing themselves? I know which I would prefer. My father in law was found to have stage four cancer and he spent a fortnight in agony before the dosage of morphine was so high he was basically a vegetable wetting and messing himself. We visited him on his last weekend alive (although he wasn't really living) and it was his 85th birthday. He was moaning with the pain but couldn't even notice us and the smell of faeces was sickening, The nurse explained that he had just been cleaned up. It broke our hearts seeing a once proud man who would do anything to help anybody in that state. Mercifully he passed away two days later but this was not the end of it because just a year later my sister in law, his daughter, was admitted to the hospice with stage 4 brain cancer. She had been complaining of severe headaches and neck pain for months and months but her doctor refused to see her and would only do a telephone consultation. We even took her to A&E but they wouldn't do anything unless it came from her GP. The early hours of one September morning she was found collapsed in her street and a passer by called a ambulance. By the time they finally got around to doing some tests and scans they found that she had stage four brain cancer and nothing could be done. You would think the end would be quick but it wasn't as she spent the next five months in agony before passing away in February. By the end she had been unconscious for over two of those months and was little more than a skeleton, her coffin weighed practically nothing.

Preserve life at all costs? **** that, people need the right to have a painless dignified death and nobody should have the right to deny that. Anything else is as good as torture. If you did that to a animal you would be in court on animal cruelty charges for prolonging suffering. Animals have more rights than humans at the end of their lives!!

 

[Hagar]

@Chuk_Chuk As you were the person who raised the topic of suicide and as suicide has nothing to do with this thread, perhaps you should elaborate on this. The point of assisted dying (not euthanasia or assisted suicide) is to provide a very small number of people a means of ending their life in a medically supervised way. No comparison. I can understand personal objections to this bill becoming law but never the religious who object on the 'sanctity of life' issue which assumes that there is actually a God. My mother after several difficult years with cancer died back in 1993 by which time she was absolutely sure that there was no such being.

 

[413x]

@Chuk_Chuk @GGizmo What gives you or anybody else the right to deny someone choosing a pain free death in a dignified manner rather than suffering in agony, possibly for months, wetting and messing themselves? I know which I would prefer. My father in law was found to have stage four cancer and he spent a fortnight in agony before the dosage of morphine was so high he was basically a vegetable wetting and messing himself. We visited him on his last weekend alive (although he wasn't really living) and it was his 85th birthday. He was moaning with the pain but couldn't even notice us and the smell of faeces was sickening, The nurse explained that he had just been cleaned up. It broke our hearts seeing a once proud man who would do anything to help anybody in that state. Mercifully he passed away two days later but this was not the end of it because just a year later my sister in law, his daughter, was admitted to the hospice with stage 4 brain cancer. She had been complaining of severe headaches and neck pain for months and months but her doctor refused to see her and would only do a telephone consultation. We even took her to A&E but they wouldn't do anything unless it came from her GP. The early hours of one September morning she was found collapsed in her street and a passer by called a ambulance. By the time they finally got around to doing some tests and scans they found that she had stage four brain cancer and nothing could be done. You would think the end would be quick but it wasn't as she spent the next five months in agony before passing away in February. By the end she had been unconscious for over two of those months and was little more than a skeleton, her coffin weighed practically nothing.

Preserve life at all costs? **** that, people need the right to have a painless dignified death and nobody should have the right to deny that. Anything else is as good as torture. If you did that to a animal you would be in court on animal cruelty charges for prolonging suffering. Animals have more rights than humans at the end of their lives!!

I have to assume those who are against mainly haven't seen this sort of thing.

Some stupid study came out saying "people who've seen a loved one pass are more likely to be in favour"

No ****. If you weren't in favour before.. I cannot fathom how you can not be in favour after seeing it first hand.

 

[slinxy]

having just lost my mum last weekend, I'm in flavour of euthanasia...

not that she, herself would have choosen it... but having experinced what a lot drawn out death, when you see a love one deteriorating... I wouldn't want anyone to experience that in regards of myself.

Personally I think it should be the same case of organ donations, where a person makes the active choice if they would want to be euthanasia while they are still healthy and that next of kin is consultated, so when the time comes there is no discussion, persuasion or foul play... I would be happy to sign up for it and I've already told love ones that if I was involved in some accident or illness where my quality of life afterwards is seriously lowered, I would not want to be be resuscitate.

 

[413x]

having just lost my mum last weekend, I'm in flavour of euthanasia...

not that she, herself would have choosen it... but having experinced what a lot drawn out death, when you see a love one deteriorating... I wouldn't want anyone to experience that in regards of myself.

Personally I think it should be the same case of organ donations, where a person makes the active choice if they would want to be euthanasia while they are still healthy and that next of kin is consultated, so when the time comes there is no discussion, persuasion or foul play... I would be happy to sign up for it and I've already told love ones that if I was involved in some accident or illness where my quality of life afterwards is seriously lowered, I would not want to be be resuscitate.

So Sorry to hear this.

 

[Parsley]

having just lost my mum last weekend, I'm in flavour of euthanasia...

not that she, herself would have choosen it... but having experinced what a lot drawn out death, when you see a love one deteriorating... I wouldn't want anyone to experience that in regards of myself.

Personally I think it should be the same case of organ donations, where a person makes the active choice if they would want to be euthanasia while they are still healthy and that next of kin is consultated, so when the time comes there is no discussion, persuasion or foul play... I would be happy to sign up for it and I've already told love ones that if I was involved in some accident or illness where my quality of life afterwards is seriously lowered, I would not want to be be resuscitate.

Sympathies.