So you could easily buy an Ioniq at ~£10-11k and hit that figure without really trying at all, given I've had one for 4 years from new I speak with experience, oh and if you get the 38kWh version you'll get 200 miles on a 100% charge, but they are ass slow at rapid charging, peaking at 42-47kW.
EV general discussion
- Thread starter Ricochet J
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So you could easily buy an Ioniq at ~£10-11k and hit that figure without really trying at all, given I've had one for 4 years from new I speak with experience, oh and if you get the 38kWh version you'll get 200 miles on a 100% charge, but they are ass slow at rapid charging, peaking at 42-47kW.
Soldato
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there are good points against EVs in this thread. clearly EVs do have a ways to go in some areas.
it is possible tho. in china you can buy an EV (an actual proper car not a twingo type golf buggy) from about 6k. so it IS possible
2nd hand things are looking okish.
and public charging pricing is bloody horrible at the moment. I do have some sympathy (although not for 80pkwh) unlike petrol many EV car drivers will only use the charging network a handful of times a year .... so that leaves a much smaller number of customers having to pay for the hardware and the maintenance.
other than a nationalised charging network, something the conservatives would never do and neither could labour or the libdems.... because as soon as the conservatives got in they would sell it for a fraction of the install price.
so other than that I have no idea how to completely solve that problem... tho I imagine Tesla are not losing money on their charging and they are a much more reasonable price so presumably that can come down too to a point.
it is possible tho. in china you can buy an EV (an actual proper car not a twingo type golf buggy) from about 6k. so it IS possible
2nd hand things are looking okish.
and public charging pricing is bloody horrible at the moment. I do have some sympathy (although not for 80pkwh) unlike petrol many EV car drivers will only use the charging network a handful of times a year .... so that leaves a much smaller number of customers having to pay for the hardware and the maintenance.
other than a nationalised charging network, something the conservatives would never do and neither could labour or the libdems.... because as soon as the conservatives got in they would sell it for a fraction of the install price.
so other than that I have no idea how to completely solve that problem... tho I imagine Tesla are not losing money on their charging and they are a much more reasonable price so presumably that can come down too to a point.
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You highlighted the point I was trying to make. It seems that people are keen to compare any brand with any other when it comes to EV pricing. 10 years ago we weren't comparing a Dacia Logan MCV to a Passat estate because they serve different markets.Dacia Sandero £14k, ICE is still cheaper
Not really a fair comparison there. Much as I like the MG4, you're comparing a budget Chinese brand to a mid-range German brand. Of course it's going to be more expensive.
That argument isn't unique to EVs though, given the Golf R 20 year edition exists; ”why would anyone pay £23k more just for a slightly faster Golf with some unnecessary stick on tat?"
There is a definitely a gap in the market for cheap and cheerful, basic, (relatively) low powered and long range EV, but comparing an EV with loads of kit to a base model equivalent ICE and claiming how much more expensive it is purely because it's an EV is disingenuous.
Yes, they are more expensive, and yes, a good chunk of that is due to the drivetrain, but you do also (usually) get more for your money.
Especially when you walk out to your nice warm defrosted car, get in, and drive off straight away, whilst saying good morning to your neighbour frantically scraping away
The other point I was trying to make is that if a brand loyal VW buyer wants to replace his 5 year old VW Golf Life 1.0 TSI manual for an equivalent vehicle then it's currently buy the same again, spend a chunk more to get an ID3 (which we'll agree is 'worth' the extra cash for now) or to buy a budget Chinese brand (not saying there is anything wrong with that, just stating facts).
But the ZEV fines are coming in now so that Golf ICE is going to have to increase in price (as stated by others) so the choice will eventually be, spend a chunk more to get an ID3, spend a chunk more on the same car because of a government derived fine or buy a cheap Chinese brand. That is the stick approach and VW are going to have to hope their customers have deep pockets.
If EVs are genuinely better (and no matter how my comments may come across, it's my opinion that in most cases they are) then why not let the market evolve and encourage people to transition rather than price them out of ICE with fines that get passed on to the consumer? Where is the market pressure to get an ID3 base spec on the market for £5k more than a base spec Golf? Chuck in small government incentive of a couple of grand and now the gap is almost irrelevant.
It may simply be that it costs what it costs to build EVs so the current pricing levels are here to stay, in which case, well played China.
I don't really buy that the government has been generous with their support. They seed funded people to buy cars that, let's face it, now look pretty archaic and then when genuine credible EV alternatives start hitting the road the support starts getting pulled. Throwing the spanner into an industry worth tens (hundreds?) of billions every year means that you have to support it. You can't just step back and say 'Net zero, get on with it'. Well, not unless you want us all getting our cars mail order via Ali Express in 10 years time.
read yesterday tesla seems to be offering lifetime superharger to sweeten/compensate for other cybertruck issues if you lived close.
for aforementioned apartments etc it is street charging - Paris taking the lead option overnight 7kw 0.25 € / kWh incl. Tax and VAT+0.05 € / 15 min incl. , must be a mixed blessing with their new parking cost referendum,
whether you would set your alarm to move car in the night.
id4/neighbour & myself, only have a 20A armoured cable to disconnected garages so might get circa 5KW, I wouldn't be digging up the communal road for 3K,
I don't categorically know a bigger cable couldn't be pulled through.
for aforementioned apartments etc it is street charging - Paris taking the lead option overnight 7kw 0.25 € / kWh incl. Tax and VAT+0.05 € / 15 min incl. , must be a mixed blessing with their new parking cost referendum,
whether you would set your alarm to move car in the night.
id4/neighbour & myself, only have a 20A armoured cable to disconnected garages so might get circa 5KW, I wouldn't be digging up the communal road for 3K,
I don't categorically know a bigger cable couldn't be pulled through.
Soldato
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5kw charging is ok for home charging tho isnt it (indeed as things are now you would profit from it as you would likely earn far more bonus "cheap" charging slots on intelligent octopus as your car would take a little longer to charge..... 5kw/h to your car is still a significant nightly charge however (now if you want slow charging, when i go to my folks i charge my ipace on my granny charger using a 3pin plug....... 85kwh battery starting at around 10% charged at around 2.3kw takes some doing!.
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Just charge the car at 3.6kw, I don’t see why this is a problem. How many miles do you actually do in a day?
You describe the MG as a cheap Chinese brand but in reality the difference is quality difference between and MG4 and a ID.3 and Golf is not that significant.
They chucked in a small government incentive, EVs sales started growing exponentially, 3 year life cycle costs got to parity and they withdrew them because in reality they shouldn’t be needed any more.
It is well played China in reality.
The government support was generous initially and as prices came down it was slowly removed.
EV sales were following the usual S curved as seen in other countries right up until the FUD ramped up, the electricity prices went bonkers followed by interest rates. The latter is impacting all new car purchases but the first two were specifically targeting EVs.
If the car is £6k more expensive to buy but it saves you £2k in fuel a year, why does the government need to get involved with subsidising new car prices? The simple answer is that they don’t.
They need to intervene with the roll out of public chargers. The irony is that there is no shortage of private money but the process archaic and adds far too much cost which also translates into prices for consumers. The DNOs also don’t have enough trained staff do make the final connections.
It's always nice to read a well thought out and comprehensive reply especially when it's in relation to comments you might not necessarily agree on so I wanted to start by pointing out that is appreciated.
China is an interesting case here. Didn't they get to this position through a strategy of MASSIVE state support in a scatter gun approach which resulted in mass oversupply and a game of attrition as that support was pulled back, each time resulting in a round of survival of the fittest. The net result being some frankly huge companies like SAIC and BYD riding out the process and picking up the spoils.
I mean, you have to admire it in a way!
On the other hand it raises the question, will the West allow its own brands to be priced out of the market? You'd forgive the European manufacturers saying come on... Throw us a bone here!
Finally with my VW / MG comparisons, don't get me wrong, I hold very little regard for the brand and it's quality (or lack of) in later years. What I'm getting at though is, rightly or wrongly a T-Shirt from Tesco is cheaper than one with a little Polo player emblem on it because of the brand. Maybe there is a genuine shift and people don't care anymore.
Maybe I prove my own point to a degree with my phone. I want one with the spec I want but beyond that I really couldn't care less. So I have a budget friendly Redmi
Soldato
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We wont get the Tesla here.
We dont live in Paris.
You dont have an EV.
What value was your post?
Sort of, that mainly applies to their infrastructure, public transit and housing. There are literal ghost cities in China where hardly anyone lives.
However, their rise in the automotive sector comes from their skills manufacturing literally everything but consumer electronics in particular.
Because China is the centre for building consumer electronics, they became the centre for battery research and manufacturing. Chinese companies bought up the whole supply chain to consolidate their position as THE battery powerhouse.
Their car firms are going gangbusters and their population likes to buy domestic. The building of the car is ultimately a solved problem. We’ve literally been doing it for 100 years. The Korean’s proved it can be done, what China is doing in that space is nothing new in reality.
Well cars built outside the EU are already subject to a 10% import tariff. How much of a bone do they need?
The ‘west’ only has its self to blame. We opened up our universities and educated their population and then outsourced a huge number of strategically significant jobs to the far east.
Manufacturing in China isn’t as cheap as it used to be. Their society is becoming wealthier and more like us every year. They want better, more meaningful and higher paying jobs like we do. So the days of their cheaper labour being an advantage will come to an end in the not too distance future. Their USPs go far beyond labour rates these days. We are just not as skilled in manufacturing as they are these days. The west seems to do software a lot better but it’s only a matter of time.
A firm (Vinfast) in Vietnam has launched their cars in the west recently, seemingly out of nowhere and they are not terrible. Software is not great but that’s not unexpected. Even the west doesn’t get that right, yes we are still looking at you VW.
Yeah, I was extremely impressed with the quality of the MG ZS and MG5 I drove (didn't bother with the 4 as unfortunately too small for us, but had a look in the showroom, and equally as nice).
The problem is, brand snobbery is very much a thing, and MG is in a similar position to Skoda 20 years ago - good cars, but not a great image.
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Most Chinese brands will face this problem, will take them sometime in the west be recognised and respected. Also take time to see if they are reliable.
I have been lucky enough to have been in a couple of Chinese cars and I have to say some are on par with build quality that we expect in the west. Some cars I really like the looks of, like the Zeeker 001.
I think a lot the western manufacturers might struggle, against the Chinese cars when they start getting sold a lot more here. We were looking at the prices of some Changang cars that are coming this year, lose leader comes to mind but it different to what others have done in the pasts.
yes 15 miles an hour with octopus would just about see out an 80 mile round trip to office when needed and can accumulate reserve for weekend
Edf - was it - option may be better with potentially more cheap hours and charging target, with granny initially.
watch some of the munro videos on ev car build quality(system integration/fasteners) - beneath the bits you see/touch - they/Chinese have been more clever about where the budget is spent,
even the undersealing/body-protection raises some concerns (johnny disagreed)
Soldato
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I love brand snobbery, long may it continue. 3 of my last 4 performance cars (in my sig) I was only able to afford thanks to them being "cheap" brands.
And yet "quality", "premium", "well made" brands such as BMW, Audi, VW, etc. often fare quite badly if you look at any of the reliability indexes.
Without a doubt some corners have been cut in the budget brands to bring the price down, but that doesn't necessarily mean the more premium brands are any different.
Hasn't it always been the case that quality and reliability don't necessarily go hand in hand?
A lot of that perceived quality used to come from switch gear, the dashboard etc. There is only so much quality a couple of slabs of glossy touchscreen can really give to a driver.
I honestly don't think people care that much about quality anymore, especially when they are only really looking at the duration of the finance agreement. The number of early Polestar's I've followed where the neon spirit level on the back showed a shocking tailgate alignment. I'm super picky about stuff like that but even I'd probably not worry about it if I was just leasing it for a few years. If I'd handed over a significant 5 figure sum on the other hand, I'd want it sorting.
I remember VinFast from the stupid valuation that resulted from its IPO, also from the reviews basically slating the cars.
Soldato
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damn I wish I could qualify for some of those deals
It’s a personal lease. Not a salary sacrifice. So open to anybody.
At that price I might pay a bit more for the long range model 3 and go full electric at home.
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What’s the deposit. How many years. Then we can see real per month. Is insurance on top ?
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