EV general discussion

No. Black cabs and 'traditional' private hire companies particularly dislike Uber because they do not operate their business in a sustainable way. They operate their business below cost so they can push established business out of the market. As it's below cost and paid for by investors competitors can't compete. Almost every Uber competitor is already on an alternative app platform including black cabs.

Have you got any source for this?
I have a long career in fiance and this just about always the first excuse of someone who cannot compete, "they must be running at a loss"

No, you couldn't be more wrong. Taxi and private hire regulation is on a cost recovery basis, TFL/councils are legally unable to make money from it. Please check your facts, 3 seconds on Google could have informed you with the correct information. It's what you'd say to some brexiter peddling their nonsense.

well my father in law a guy who did some taxi driving at the end of his career certainly didnt think so. He said what he had to pay for things like checks was silly. Anyone who has actually seen how much is charged for checks will know that they cost pounds not hundreds.
Ive seen my local coincils charges and they are hundreds as well, thats for the driver, then a hundred or so for teh car, more if it needs an MOT etc. These sorts of amount are not the true cost, they are inflated costs.
hell as an accountant i could make the cost of things look way different to what another could, when you say cost I say actual, including overheads etc

They don't want to give Uber a licence because TfL believe they do not follow the regulation correctly. Makes sense when you consider the business isn't run in a sustainable way, something has to give.

May have some point apart from the fact black cabs are hardly sustainable either.
Its also TFLs regulation don't forget, Uber are a disruptor, some places dont like that

Uber and their drivers is regulated like all private hire firms. The regulation is also far easier and cheaper to navigate, not exactly favoritism to black cabs. Particular around the type of vehicle you can use, a new black cab costs over £60k, let alone the knowledge in London. The regulation is actually there for your safety and to try and stop incidents like this happening:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Worboys

I am not sure using the black cab rapist as a defence that black cabs are safer than ubers is a strategy that holds much water personally ;)
 
Have you got any source for this?
I have a long career in fiance and this just about always the first excuse of someone who cannot compete, "they must be running at a loss"

They've lost more money than almost any start up ever. Their business is asset light, almost all of their expenditure does back out to drivers or into acquiring sales (e.g. marketing). That doesn't really change as you scale, as shown by a 43% increase in bookings which just widened the loss they made. The business also has very low barriers to entry, hence all the other taxi apps out there now.

https://investor.uber.com/news-even...s-Results-for-Third-Quarter-2019/default.aspx
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...it-remains-elusive-ahead-of-ipo-idUSKCN1Q42CI
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lensherman/2019/06/02/can-uber-ever-be-profitable/#1048bdc55785
https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/8/20793793/uber-5-billion-quarter-loss-profit-lyft-traffic-2019
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/27/ube...ble-companies-worth-more-than-50-billion.html

well my father in law a guy who did some taxi driving at the end of his career certainly didnt think so. He said what he had to pay for things like checks was silly. Anyone who has actually seen how much is charged for checks will know that they cost pounds not hundreds.
Ive seen my local coincils charges and they are hundreds as well, thats for the driver, then a hundred or so for teh car, more if it needs an MOT etc. These sorts of amount are not the true cost, they are inflated costs.
hell as an accountant i could make the cost of things look way different to what another could, when you say cost I say actual, including overheads etc

I just explained licensing has to be run on a cost recovery basis, they can not make a profit on it, its against the law. Here is what happens when councils try to bundle other costs into the price:
https://www.ftbchambers.co.uk/news/high-court-quashes-wakefield-taxi-fees

The link above even quotes the relevant piece of legislation if you really don't believe me.

I am not sure using the black cab rapist as a defence that black cabs are safer than ubers is a strategy that holds much water personally ;)

I think the point was missed there.

It was a direct response to:
Well specifically in Londons case yes.
Most councils make money from licenced taxis, its my main conclusion behind the TFL and uber licence issue. TFL stand to loose money hence it suits them to side with the black cabs
Yep, why innovate when you can regulate! :)
The point I was making that the regulation is there for a reason, it doesn't stop people disrupting the market. If anything the wider regulation like the vehicle restrictions and knowledge tests puts black cabs at a disadvantage and makes it easier for the likes of Uber to operate because their drivers have a much lower barrier to entry.

Like I said last time, back to topic.
 
Have you got any source for this?
I have a long career in fiance and this just about always the first excuse of someone who cannot compete, "they must be running at a loss"

Uber just matches the driver to the customer and then takes it's cut. They don't pay wages etc. or the fees which taxi companies have to :/

They are a scummy business really, which treats it's "employees" like ****.
 
fifh gear comparing e-tron / teslaS .... did not know the etron already has some suv qualities with decent more practical sized hatch back versus tesla,
I would say a prettier car too, but maybe the aerodynamics on the tesla much better ?
e-tron conventional cabin controls looks a bit cluttered, as they said, but the 17(?)" tablet in the S also distracting/dominating (like m3 i guess ?)
do wonder how they are classifying distraction element of these screens, ok if it is in AP, 'might' be less of a concern, in the case of an accident would the police be demanding telematics data ? (assuming you don't have a passenger to attribute its use to)

Used car comparison too - leaf1/ampera/i3 ... i3 wins for them .. hows your range mjt ?

a good show
 
They've lost more money than almost any start up ever. Their business is asset light, almost all of their expenditure does back out to drivers or into acquiring sales (e.g. marketing). That doesn't really change as you scale, as shown by a 43% increase in bookings which just widened the loss they made. The business also has very low barriers to entry, hence all the other taxi apps out there now.

https://investor.uber.com/news-even...s-Results-for-Third-Quarter-2019/default.aspx
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...it-remains-elusive-ahead-of-ipo-idUSKCN1Q42CI
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lensherman/2019/06/02/can-uber-ever-be-profitable/#1048bdc55785
https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/8/20793793/uber-5-billion-quarter-loss-profit-lyft-traffic-2019
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/27/ube...ble-companies-worth-more-than-50-billion.html



I just explained licensing has to be run on a cost recovery basis, they can not make a profit on it, its against the law. Here is what happens when councils try to bundle other costs into the price:
https://www.ftbchambers.co.uk/news/high-court-quashes-wakefield-taxi-fees

The link above even quotes the relevant piece of legislation if you really don't believe me.



I think the point was missed there.

It was a direct response to:


The point I was making that the regulation is there for a reason, it doesn't stop people disrupting the market. If anything the wider regulation like the vehicle restrictions and knowledge tests puts black cabs at a disadvantage and makes it easier for the likes of Uber to operate because their drivers have a much lower barrier to entry.

Like I said last time, back to topic.

Again I dont want to get into arguments about non sustanability etc, but practically every sort of business of this ilk will make losses that scale upwards as they develop and roll out.
Tesla have in effect made massive losses etc
Its completely normal when massive scale up happens.

That thing you linked is basically saying that non relevant costs cannot be added, all the ones listed are irrelevant in concept of allocating costs to the effort of running the operation, charging the licencing element with the costs of the irrelevant services would make sense to be rejected.
They are more penalties and not relevant in the licencing side. It would be equivalent to your employer fining you for breaching dress code.

When you run a large organisation you have lots of costs that are basically allocated to the end output. The direct costs, searches etc probably the direct staff costs, then the building they are placed in, the share of HR time they absorb, the share of the heads of department, legal council etc 70 (1) c would be clear here, in those circumstances in a commercial environment it would be completely normal to charge full costs, which would include allocations of all sums relevant to the undertaking, some of which would have to be completely arbitrary. Its when you get to this point that a cost/management accountant would start saying "don't use these costs to make any business decisions" and this is because they would know that a significant portion of those costs would not disappear should you stop the function. IE they are absorbing costs they do not directly incur.
This is basically how you get to the point all along, the costs of actually implementing the costs of the scheme will be well below the charges placed.
 
I am looking at next change to go fully electric. The problem I have is that I need at least 6 seats.
Apart from the Tesla X there is nothing out at the moment. My present Audi Q7 50Tdi is probably the last ICE car I will own I think.
Mind you, will it be fully electric, hybrid or fuel cell?
The problem when looking for the wife's new car was the lack of options to change to, either full ev or hybrid. Waiting a year to get a new Golf GTE? Dream on VW.
 
The mustang thing does looks interesting, not a fan of the looks myself but i'm sure people will lap it up as it's a crossover.

Wonder how long till we can get some real world efficiency numbers, do we know what battery tech they're using?
 
That is a bizarre looking thing in some of the photos. Good to see the masses are being well catered for with the large, comfortable, relatively affordable electric cars...
 
fifh gear comparing e-tron / teslaS .... did not know the etron already has some suv qualities with decent more practical sized hatch back versus tesla,
I would say a prettier car too, but maybe the aerodynamics on the tesla much better ?
e-tron conventional cabin controls looks a bit cluttered, as they said, but the 17(?)" tablet in the S also distracting/dominating (like m3 i guess ?)
do wonder how they are classifying distraction element of these screens, ok if it is in AP, 'might' be less of a concern, in the case of an accident would the police be demanding telematics data ? (assuming you don't have a passenger to attribute its use to)

Used car comparison too - leaf1/ampera/i3 ... i3 wins for them .. hows your range mjt ?

a good show

What I find interesting about the e-Tron is that - while it officially has a lot less range than the X - in the professional UK reviews, when the two are compared and used on UK road trips, they end up with almost identical ranges.

The Mach-E looks looks like it’s going to be a good option for people I tested in a performance CUV. Similar spec, range and price to the Y, which is quite impressive from Ford. Also likely to be released at around the same time.
 
I bet that Mustang won't be even close to that price over here :/

Also I can see that cars are going to get even fatter as EVs, which is a shame.
 
Is there no innovation for improving the front nose/bonnet design of ev' which I find equally unattractive for for both Tesla and Mustang,
I can't find any articles on how much the pedestrian safety requirements reduce the aerodynamics, but seems to me some kind of aerofoil that could be deployed at speed on motorway would be the way to go ?
otherwise, there must be some special air turbulence 'deal' for the front, concave radiator grill, ev's are adopting

Scanned this guardian article
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...urse-pedestrian-deaths-rising-driverless-cars
which reminded me, also that re: the earlier Uber discussion .. they could be consigned to obscurity, if they don't have a driverless car solution,
why would the major manufacturers not just get into that market themselves, both, car-sharing and taxis, or, TFL for example, just do a deal with the car manufacturer - the end game ?


There don't seem to be any boot open shots for Mustang yet, to understand it's loading practicalities ?
 
Several of the major manufacturers are trying to get into the robotaxi market.

Ford have been working to that aim since 2015, similarly with VAG (although they recently invested in Fords company, as part of the MEB partnership). Nissan/Renault are also doing their own thing regarding taxis.

Companies like Volvo are investing heavily in autonomous lorries, but have also partnered with Uber. JLR have partnered with Waymo.

The main reason you do t hear about them is because they’re not trying to sell cars based on the tech today. Tesla are pushing hard with the advertising of their tech because they want to up sell future technology now, and are using it as a way of selling cars to “reachers” who wouldn’t normally spend that much on a car (using the whole “appreciating asset” sales pitch - which makes the extremely optimistic assumption that Tesla will be the only autonomous tech company around).

2021 is going to be an interesting year. That’s when most of the manufacturers are aiming to scale their tech. Whether that becomes reality is another question as autonomy has had a lot of false dawns. (I believe GM, who are also in the robotaxi game, have pushed their rollout plans back just recently for example).
 
Several of the major manufacturers are trying to get into the robotaxi market.

Ford have been working to that aim since 2015, similarly with VAG (although they recently invested in Fords company, as part of the MEB partnership). Nissan/Renault are also doing their own thing regarding taxis.

Companies like Volvo are investing heavily in autonomous lorries, but have also partnered with Uber. JLR have partnered with Waymo.

The main reason you do t hear about them is because they’re not trying to sell cars based on the tech today. Tesla are pushing hard with the advertising of their tech because they want to up sell future technology now, and are using it as a way of selling cars to “reachers” who wouldn’t normally spend that much on a car (using the whole “appreciating asset” sales pitch - which makes the extremely optimistic assumption that Tesla will be the only autonomous tech company around).

2021 is going to be an interesting year. That’s when most of the manufacturers are aiming to scale their tech. Whether that becomes reality is another question as autonomy has had a lot of false dawns. (I believe GM, who are also in the robotaxi game, have pushed their rollout plans back just recently for example).

tesla will be in the unique position where they own the entire thing. They own the software and the hardware that it runs on in its entirety. Other companies will rely on external providers for help.
 
( I suppose going fully electric didn't preclude exclusive ev taxi use too )

https://medium.com/@trenteady/why-t...-in-self-driving-car-development-8eff18c65d3c

it would appear waymo disengagement 1 evey 40 miles ... so I couldn't yet get to work and back, and tesla apparently don't publish this data (weird),
especially data from the the busy school run with lots of targets to avoid, so it is unclear when machine driving singularity will be reached.
...but the software and maybe the Idar vs camera dichotomy is the key ? having a good range if you cannot watch netflix at the wheel, is not so useful
 
They might roll them out with next gen street lights.

Not exactly useful when in my street there are only two streetlights, one at either end and nowhere near my mid-terrace. Hell, I'm in a large city and still don't have access to any fibre broadband, so getting charging points for EVs is a bit of a pipe dream.
 
tesla will be in the unique position where they own the entire thing. They own the software and the hardware that it runs on in its entirety. Other companies will rely on external providers for help.

Excluding Volvo and JLR with their partnerships, most to their manufacturers are doing exactly what Tesla are doing. They (Tesla) are not doing anything different in that regard, they’re just pushing the potential of their future tech more as they want people to buy into it now.
 
Excluding Volvo and JLR with their partnerships, most to their manufacturers are doing exactly what Tesla are doing. They (Tesla) are not doing anything different in that regard, they’re just pushing the potential of their future tech more as they want people to buy into it now.

I thought they were just reselling mobile eye or similar
 
( I suppose going fully electric didn't preclude exclusive ev taxi use too )

https://medium.com/@trenteady/why-t...-in-self-driving-car-development-8eff18c65d3c

it would appear waymo disengagement 1 evey 40 miles ... so I couldn't yet get to work and back, and tesla apparently don't publish this data (weird),
especially data from the the busy school run with lots of targets to avoid, so it is unclear when machine driving singularity will be reached.
...but the software and maybe the Idar vs camera dichotomy is the key ? having a good range if you cannot watch netflix at the wheel, is not so useful

Because you’re comparing Apples to Oranges. Both companies are going about things totally differently tech wise, but they’re also at different points on the autonomous ladder.

Waymo are testing actual Level four autonomy, where disengagements are important. Tesla on the other hand have only rolled out (publicly at least) Level two tech, where disengagements will be much higher.

Tesla hope that their level two tech will “learn” faster than other companies, and as such eventually overtake the other companies.

The way they’re marketing their FSD and the way they have previously marketed their Autopilot is dangerous IMO, and that of others, including regulators who have chastised for it. Their FSD when announced as “feature complete” (presumably one the next few months) will be seen by many as Level four, but in reality it will still be level two for a long while yet.

Not only that, but Waymo and Tesla are at two different ends of the autonomy scale use wise too. So far Tesla have been working on the easy stuff, simple highways and recently slow, more complex areas (car parks). Waymo are in at the deep end working on complex situations in cities and towns. To put it another way, “highways” will have a dozen or so interactions on a trip, car parks will have similar, but towns will have hundreds, which is why most consumer ready products are for main road use only.

The argument Tesla are “ahead” is almost entirely based on the argument that their AI has more real world data to play with. True, but whether that data is actually more useful than simulations is up for debate, especially as other companies have shown a greater ability to function in more complex environments - worth pointing out here that the highway portion of their FSD has been around for about five years now and it’s still not up to Level three standard, let alone level four. The town portion they plan on releasing is going to take a lot longer than a year or so to get to level four...
 
I thought they were just reselling mobile eye or similar

Audi are currently using Mobileye, but the plan for the future is to use their own (or now Argo AIs) tech for their future cars. Argo AI is (I believe) technically an independent company, but Ford has invested over a billion into it, and VAG are now investing $2.5B and sharing employees with it too.

Mobileye and other manufacturers will probably be the option for some manufacturers though, just as it’s one of the leading suppliers of Level 2 tech in cars now (adaptive cruise and lane keeping etc).

Edit: Actually it would seem the combined investment into Argo AI is around $7B, so Ford must have invested a lot more than $1B.
 
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