Poll: Exit Poll: UK General Election 2017 - Results discussion and OcUK Exit Poll - Closing 8th July

[StriderX]

*Sees apology on the Internet. Falls off chair*

No worries, and thanks. Irony, maybe. I don't hold the Conservatives up as any sort of ideal. I simply think it's absurd for people to place sole responsibility for our current, very complex situation at their doorstep. And if you're inclined to challenge that, I'll point out that "sole" and similar was exactly what people were accusing them of.

If our situation was that the country was literally burning to the ground and the Tories were busy cutting the fireman and increasing taxes on fire extinguishers, then it's largely their fault that the situation isnt getting attention.

I'd love to see the crass hypocrisy if Labour came in and blamed the Tories for all the ills the country is in and do nothing about any of it with the statement "hurr ******* durr, last administration was *****, ignore our problems pls". But that was exactly what happened in 1997, though it was hidden behind a rather safe economy.

 

[Freakbro]

So, most of the Manifesto has gone.....not sure why, unless it was all that unpopular to start with. It's not like they are in a coalition and have to compromise on it

 

[The_Abyss]

So, most of the Manifesto has gone.....not sure why, unless it was all that unpopular to start with. It's not like they are in a coalition and have to compromise on it

It was horribly unpopular, and May has been forced by the party to drop some of the more unpopular elements.

 

[Glaucus]

So, most of the Manifesto has gone.....not sure why, unless it was all that unpopular to start with. It's not like they are in a coalition and have to compromise on it

it was unpopular and not being in a coalition means they have to compromise even more. As they now require cross-party votes to get anything through.
*Goes off to see what actually happened in the queens speech.

 

[The_Abyss]

Considering the Queen's speech covers two years, it proposes a very light legislative program. Perhaps an acknowledgement that the majority of resources are going to be focussed on Brexit discussions and transition. The Queen rushed through it with little enthusiasm and has now sprinted off to Ascot for the racing.

 

[StriderX]

Still needs to get past the vote.

 

[LOAM]

A very minor point but it was good to hear no mention of fox hunting.

 

[h4rm0ny]

A very minor point but it was good to hear no mention of fox hunting.

Agreed. That's a plus. I still can't believe they were dumb enough to include that. Shows they really thought they'd just walk the election.

 

[Mr Badger]

Blair's war was a ****up too, and you won't find many Labour supporters defending it. Quite the opposite. But that's why New Labour are now on the fringes of their party and Labour still haven't fully recovered electorally.

Was Blair wrong about the Iraq war and did it forever tarnish his reputation? Yes. Was the war universally popular within the Labour party? Well, let's ask Mr Corbyn about that.

Charles Kennedy was against it. However, if we are talking about the long term costs and impact of the war on the subsequent governments, perhaps we should refresh our memories as to whether there was total opposition to the war from the USA loving Tories?

Cameron backs Blair on Iraq war

 

[Deleted member 68110]

See, if you were less hyperbolic, if you just confined yourself to pointing out the ample examples of things that are actually the Tory's faults then we'd have agreement. But you claim they have sole responsibility for "the mess", you don't accept that not everything can be fixed in seven years, you don't accept that we are still paying in multiple ways for the Iraq War, that New Labour enacted many of the harmful changes to the NHS, you don't accept that the global financial crisis isn't the Tory's fault or acknowledge just how bug an impact that is. You probably blame the Tories for Brexit but allowing the people self-determination was the right thing to do ethically, as is honouring the will of the people - the fact that we chose so terribly is on us, the British people. Cameron staked his career on campaigning to stay in.

You can't credibly dump everything on the Conservatives' doorstep.

So disingenuous

You've created a strawman argument and tried to imply I have stated the Conservatives are responsible for all ills in the history of the world which is regrettable. Nevertheless, I'll take your "ample examples of things that are actually the Tory's faults" as agreement on the Conservative blame for the mess we are talking about - the aftermath of the GE that is the subject of this thread.

Your argument that the Conservatives held the Brexit Referendum because "allowing the people self-determination was the right thing to do ethically" is staggering and farcical. That you feel able to make that claim puts all you say into context.

 

[dalehitchy1]

So do the Tories have a so called magic money tree now...? Before they said they needed the dementia tax for social care but now they are removing it. Where is the money coming from now?

 

[Mr Badger]

So do the Tories have a so called magic money tree now...? Before they said they needed the dementia tax for social care but now they are removing it. Where is the money coming from now?

Clearly £350 Million per week goes further than we thought...

 

[Deleted member 66701]

So, Labour in opposition have achieved:-

Saved winter fuel allowance
No Dementia Tax
No new Grammar Schools
Kept hunting ban
Saved free school meals

Pretty impressive start.

 

[Irish_Tom]

*Sees apology on the Internet. Falls off chair*

No worries, and thanks. Irony, maybe. I don't hold the Conservatives up as any sort of ideal. I simply think it's absurd for people to place sole responsibility for our current, very complex situation at their doorstep. And if you're inclined to challenge that, I'll point out that "sole" and similar was exactly what people were accusing them of.

Haha

I don't place sole responsibility for our current situation on the Conservstives and you're right it is very complicated — but how far back do you want to go?

Is it New Labour's fault that there was a global financial crisis (as so many people are quick to state)?

Is it Thatcher's fault for deregulating the financial services industry which eventually resulted in the financial crash?

Is it Callaghan or Heath's fault for putting the country into a situation where Thatcherism was attractive?

The fact is, we're seven years into a period of Conservative-control; we're dealing with Brexit (definitely the Conservatives fault), a pointless election that has done more harm than good (specifically TM's fault) along with the results of seven years of austerity.

Now, the reasons why we've suffered austerity may not be directly the fault of the Conservstives, but the choice to inflict their specific form of austerity lies solely with them.

That doesn't excuse the mistakes of the past by others, but equally, it doesn't excuse mistakes made by the current government for the situation we find ourselves in.

 

[do_ron_ron]

Depends what you think the mess we're in actually is. Personally, I think brexit + unstable government is The Mess, and the Tories totally inflicted that upon the country with their choices. They're an absolute shambles.

Yes, they could have ignored the advisory Ref. for a whole host of reasons such as the people did not get real information.

'self-determination' principle simply can't apply to whole populations. Because among that, there will necessarily be some who are crowded out from their ability to determine themselves.

Referendums (referenda?) are simply unrestrained populism. And there's nothing ethical about it.

You don't get real self determination as such, you get a choice between two carefully crafted(apart from the recent one) sets of promises by two large political organisations who have excluded choice of candidates etc. Very much corporate politics.

 

[Azza]

From Norman Smith

@BBCNormanS
DUP asking for one billion extra for NHS and one billion extra for infrastructure report colleagues at @BBCnireland

 

[do_ron_ron]

So do the Tories have a so called magic money tree now...? Before they said they needed the dementia tax for social care but now they are removing it. Where is the money coming from now?

Is Quantative Easing not the same. Creating money for the banks.

 

[LOAM]

From Norman Smith

Its pretty nailed on that they also want a reduction in corp tax to mirror the 12.5% rate of RoI, its something they have campaigned for, for some time.

 

[dalehitchy1]

From Norman Smith

£1 billion for Ireland
Apparently the end of austerity
No more dementia tax for social care
Still a hardest of hard brexit

There's deffo a money tree somewhere... Cayman islands?

 

[Roar87]

Yes, they could have ignored the advisory Ref. for a whole host of reasons such as the people did not get real information.

Why do people expect Politicians to provide them with all their information? Politicians are arguing a side, they're going to paint the positives of their side and the negatives of the other side, often they're going to exaggerate both of those. As a voter you have the responsibility to go and find out the true facts and make your own mind up, and given that everyone has access to the internet these days it's incredibly easy. Trying to invalidate a free democratic vote is what leads to civil unrest.