F1 2009 Season discussion/development thread
- Thread starter Duke
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I just looked at the picture. He seems happy, but I know that he wont be as he is a winner - he doesnt like coming in 2nd best.
Chris Hoy deserved it though - so many Gold medals.
From what I remember, the Williams was one of the more reliable cars that year. During these years, cars were less reliable than they are today. For a driver to not suffer at least 2 car failures during that year, was unheard of. In 2002/3/4, the level of reliability had moved on significantly where the likes of MS could go an entire season without car failure.
Williams, Bennetton and McLaren all suffered car failure.
Reliability was the difference. Also you didnt get the likes of MS qualifying by large margins, in the same way that Mansell enjoyed. Though Mansell, that year, was something else.
Once again, you are bringing reliability into it. In those days, cars werent as reliable as we see them today. Both McLaren and Williams were breaking down. But, when the car stayed on the road and didnt break, it would generally go onto win. With ease. Donnington, accepted, as for me, that was Senna's best race ever.
Another factor was that Prost was doing the bare minimum to score points and win the WDC. He wasnt interested in dominating (anymore), in the same way that Mansell or Senna were.
Good point, however, what the stats are not telling you is the manner in which the FW18 was winning races - it wasnt as dominating as the FW14B (1992). In this season, MS was able to win some races on merit, without relying on Williams car failures. In 1992, the Williams' would both have to break down or suffer from bad luck (eg. Monaco 1992), before you got a look in.
Furthermore, in 1992, Williams took 15/16 pole positions (not easy to do as Senna was the Pole Meister). In 1993, Williams took 15/16 poles. However, in 1996, Williams only took 12/16 poles, which shows that other cars, could beat the Williams on the basis of speed. In 1992/3, the Williams had the ultimate fastest speed on pretty much all the tracks.
It must be noted though that in 1996, the points total of the Williams was pretty awesome, mainly down to having 2 great drivers (Hill and Villeneuve) who at the time, were enjoying the best years of their career. It just so happened that they both peaked at the same time, in the best car.
Soldato
Electrical fault at Monza and a blown engine in Japan for Mansell. Gearbox in Canada, engine in Hungary, and another engine in Australia for Patrese. So yes, compared with the likes of the Ferrari F92A it was a paragon of reliability!
If we want to bring qually margins into play, then we have to consider the McLaren MP4/4 of '88 as a much more dominating car (quite apart from the fact that it won all but one race that year). Monaco - Senna is on pole by 1.4sec from Prost, who is a further 1.3sec ahead of the next challenger!
I don't find domination like that boring. Despite being a Ferrari fan, I loved '88 (though I can only remember watching Monza on TV that year, I'm told I did watch all of them but the memory isn't so clear 20 years on). This year was much tighter (artificially tighter), and yet was mostly rubbish. Between the stewards decisions ranging from brainless to suspicious, the two top drivers both driving like utter morons on more than a few occasions, all the off-track nonsense.....definitely not a vintage year for Grand Prix racing.
Soldato
yup, thats one reason i was glad this season was over. infact it was the first year since 95 where i didnt even bother watching races.
Cant wait for 2009, but i have a feeling its going to be ruined by the FIA somehow.
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Can Toyota be far behind?
I suspect that with Suzuki now pulling out of the WRC, Toyota are going to find it very difficult to justify to their shareholders any decision to continue investing $300 million per year in F1 when it has been reported that their sales from April to September were 69% down on the same period last year.
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Electrical fault at Monza and a blown engine in Japan for Mansell. Gearbox in Canada, engine in Hungary, and another engine in Australia for Patrese. So yes, compared with the likes of the Ferrari F92A it was a paragon of reliability!
If we want to bring qually margins into play, then we have to consider the McLaren MP4/4 of '88 as a much more dominating car (quite apart from the fact that it won all but one race that year). Monaco - Senna is on pole by 1.4sec from Prost, who is a further 1.3sec ahead of the next challenger!
I don't find domination like that boring. Despite being a Ferrari fan, I loved '88 (though I can only remember watching Monza on TV that year, I'm told I did watch all of them but the memory isn't so clear 20 years on). This year was much tighter (artificially tighter), and yet was mostly rubbish. Between the stewards decisions ranging from brainless to suspicious, the two top drivers both driving like utter morons on more than a few occasions, all the off-track nonsense.....definitely not a vintage year for Grand Prix racing.
1988 was a McLaren-dominated year for several reasons (they would've won at Monza but for Jean-Louis Schlesser punting Senna off when he came to lap him). Firstly, Honda had moved over to McLaren from Williams and Lotus who both now had to make do with Judd V10s which weren't competitive, thereby eliminating two front-running teams. Secondly, it was the last year of turbo cars - the Normally Aspirated regs for '89 had been finalised well before the start of the '88 season and most teams decided that further investment in development of their existing turbo engines was not worth it for one season alone - all except for Honda (how times change eh?)
LMAO.
I cant be bothered to go through a comparison with other teams, but how many car failures did Williams have, compared to McLaren and Bennetton? Those were their main competitors, so it makes sense to use them for comparison.
If we want to bring qually margins into play, then we have to consider the McLaren MP4/4 of '88 as a much more dominating car (quite apart from the fact that it won all but one race that year). Monaco - Senna is on pole by 1.4sec from Prost, who is a further 1.3sec ahead of the next challenger!
That was indeed true domination. If memory serves me correct, McLarens won 15 out of 16 races in 1988. And I think the 1 race that wasnt won, was down to Senna being shunted off by another car. It was 20yrs back, so I could be wrong.
I too like to see domination, however, only when it involves a driver I'm supporting - eg. Mansell in 1992.
I dont believe that Hamilton nor Massa drove that badly this year.
Hamilton couldve done better, however, he was under immense pressure, to secure his first title, in only his second year of "senior" racing. Last year, the pressure wouldve been on Alonso, but this year, Hamilton (within the team), had agreed to lead McLaren. There just wasnt any margin for error, as far as he was concerned, which led to him overdriving the car, at times and making errors. Obviously, the error in Canada was glaring, but I doubt he will be doing that again.
Massa drove well but struggled in his first race of the season without driving aids and in the wet (in many races), but that was to be expected. As the season wore on, he improved, culiminating with him winning his first race in variable weather conditions (Brazil), which I felt was one of his best performances.
Massa and Hamilton are both improving and I often wonder how long Alonso can stay at the top. I'm certainly expecting big things in 2009.
To Hamilton's credit though, he appeared at one point to lean over to the third place lass and he seemed to be saying "he definitely deserves this more than me". I think even hamilton recognises that pulling in the biggest single medal haul in a century is a pretty big achievement, in a very successful Olympic year I think it's quite something he even made 2nd.
Not to rain on his parade, but he should do well in Brazil - it's his favourite track and he knows it like the back of his hand, including how much you can push your luck in those kinds of conditions.
Soldato
As I recall:
McLaren - 5 for Senna, 4 for Berger
Benetton - 1 for Schumacher (unless you count his rear wing falling off in Hungary), 3 for Brundle
I might have to go check that.
Yep. He came into contact with Jean-Louis Schlesser (the late Jo Schlesser's nephew) at the Variante Del Rettifilo. Prost retiring with a blown engine also contributed some to the Ferrari win of course - that put the Ferraris in a position to take advantage of Senna going out.
Sure, over the balance of an entire season they both drove okay - you don't win a title (or finish second in the title race for that matter) by being rubbish at every single race. And yet there were off-form, bone-headed and just plain crazy moments for both drivers all year long.
Hamilton:
1) Stupidity in Malaysia qualifying, touring around on the racing line
2) Crashing into the back of Alonso in Bahrain
3) Crashing into the back of a stationary car in the pitlane with the red light on and the team yelling at him over the radio to hit the sodding brakes in Canada
4) Losing his head in France and going chicane-hopping
5) Terrible qualifying perfornance in Italy
6) Turn 1 moment in Japan, with a completely anonymous drive following that and his collision with Massa
Massa:
1) Wayward in Australia
2) Threw it off the road in Malaysia
3) Horror show in Britain
4) Started 6th, ended 6th in Monza with a fairly uninspiring drive
5) Did bog-all in Singapore after the screwed-up pitstop
6) Hit Hamilton and Bourdais in Japan, lucky to be promoted to 7th wth that bizarre stewards decision
***edit***
Regarding the Sports Personality Of The Year - wasn't Hamilton runner-up last year as well?
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Soldato
Flibster said:
Interesting. Though I always think skeptical thoughts when "anonymous" sources are involved.
Associate
Yup. But I've heard it from 2 different places so far. So it could be real - could even give Loeb a F1 drive.
In addition to the rumour above... have another one.
Apparently most of the Williams test team are looking for other jobs.
Since there's now a ban on testing during the race season it does make sence that the test team will go and the race team will do all the testing over winter.
I think the difference is the williams in 92 was qualifying over 2 seconds ahead of the rest of the pack. The 96 williams was dominant but not by that degree. Also Mansell didn't have to try as hard as damon and JV towards the later 3rd of the season. Mansell had it wrapped up early while the two team mates in 96 fought each other.
Mansell could have won more than the 9 he won that year I think.
Testing continued today at two tracks
Jerez - Williams, BMW & Redbull Racing
http://www.formula1.com/gallery/testing/2008/338.html
Portimao - Ferrari & McLaren
http://www.formula1.com/gallery/testing/2008/339.html
Jerez - Williams, BMW & Redbull Racing
http://www.formula1.com/gallery/testing/2008/338.html
Portimao - Ferrari & McLaren
http://www.formula1.com/gallery/testing/2008/339.html
Will miss the RB4, looking forwards to the RB5 though looks like a very simple chassis to work on.
1) Massa was very new to the car. He needs a lot of time to adapt, but when he does, he is pretty fast and reliable. As the season progressed he definitely improved. In the first race of the season, he spun all by himself (due to lack of driving aids).
2)Yep. All part of the learning curve.
3)Silverstone was a very wet race. Massa initially struggled in wet/changing weather conditions. He seemed to have it sussed by the season end though.
4)Yep.
5)Yep. But before the pit-stop he was on course for the win. He simply got demoralised and may as well have parked the car in the garage after he got the penalty.
6)In Japan, he was beginning to show his aggressive side. He did well to shunt Hamilton - I would've done exactly the same, if only to send a message to Hamilton that he wasnt going to be walked over. Thats the sort of thing is the sort of thing we wouldve seen when Mansell, Prost and Senna raced eachother. Bourdais' demotion - Ferrari International Assistance.
2009 should be great, but I hope that Massa doesnt start his learning curve, right from the beginning again.
