F1 Testing week 2 @ Jerez

JRS · 14 Feb 2011 at 16:50

dannyjo22 said:
If you would've said to someone in 97 that Villeneuves title would be their last people would laugh you out of town.

If you'd said to someone at the end of the '79 season that Ferrari wouldn't win another drivers title before 2000 you'd have been laughed at as well.

Things change. Unfortunately for Williams, they changed in a way that really did them no favours.

sunama · 14 Feb 2011 at 17:02

Do you think it was Newey's departure which led to their downfall?

I remember reading a big front page headline on Autosport in 1998/1999 and it read something along the lines of, "Is this man faster than Michael Schumacher?"...with an image of A. Newey.

Williams' problem has always been their tight budget which they operate within. They negotiate VERY hard with their drivers (and World Champions, who seem to immediately leave after winning the title with Williams) and no doubt, they also negotiate hard on other contracts within the team.

Why did Newey leave Williams ... was it over money?

Mr Jack · 14 Feb 2011 at 17:10

Williams budget is smaller now, but they had one of the biggest budgets - if not the biggest budget - back in their glory years.

sunama said:
Why did Newey leave Williams ... was it over money?

According to Wikipedia, no, it was because he wanted a position with more responsibility and control and couldn't do that with Head also there at Williams.

rpstewart · 14 Feb 2011 at 17:14

sunama said:
Why did Newey leave Williams ... was it over money?

In a way, yes. He wanted to stay but only if he got a stake in the team (and hence a greater say in strategic direction etc), however Frank and Patrick weren't willing to dilute their holdings so off to McLaren he went.

sunama · 14 Feb 2011 at 17:16

Mr Jack said:
Williams budget is smaller now, but they had one of the biggest budgets - if not the biggest budget - back in their glory years.

During the 90's I remember reading in Autosport about F1 budgets and if memory serves me correct, Williams' budget was around £40M, McLaren around £50M, while Ferrari's budget was around £100M. Williams certainly had nowhere near the highest budget in F1.

Overlag · 14 Feb 2011 at 17:23

sunama said:
During the 90's I remember reading in Autosport about F1 budgets and if memory serves me correct, Williams' budget was around £40M, McLaren around £50M, while Ferrari's budget was around £100M. Williams certainly had nowhere near the highest budget in F1.

Yup, i remember figures like that too, i dont think they have ever had the biggest budget. Hence drivers had to be paid less to be in the best cars... Something Senna was willing to take etc

Mr Jack · 14 Feb 2011 at 17:54

I could be remembering incorrectly, but I recall Williams being higher than McLaren and not far off Ferrari in the 90's. Mind you I wasn't such a fan then, so I could easily be wrong

I couldn't track down any figures from a quick Google, anyone have any sources?

sunama · 14 Feb 2011 at 18:00

Overlag said:
Yup, i remember figures like that too, i dont think they have ever had the biggest budget. Hence drivers had to be paid less to be in the best cars... Something Senna was willing to take etc

Hehehe.

Senna came on national TV and declared that he would drive for Williams for free (he wasn't joking). I didnt particularly like Senna as a personality, but I certainly

Its funny that in those days a driver could do those things and nobody would not speak ill of him. Yet, in 2011 is somebody like Alonso did that (say he offered to drive for RBR for free), everybody would be up in arms over his disloyalty to his current paymasters.

How things have changed.

sunama · 14 Feb 2011 at 18:10

Mr Jack said:
I could be remembering incorrectly, but I recall Williams being higher than McLaren and not far off Ferrari in the 90's. Mind you I wasn't such a fan then, so I could easily be wrong

I couldn't track down any figures from a quick Google, anyone have any sources?

In general, Ferrari have always had one of the highest budgets in F1. This changed when Toyota arrived and McLaren got more lucrative sponsorhip deals and Toyota decided to rewrite the (budgetary) record books.

These are the 2005 budgets:
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.autos.sport.f1/2006-02/msg01381.html

In 2005, only Toyota outspend Ferrari.

Hopefully someone can pull out budgets from earlier years. The general trend sees McLaren's budget increasing and matching Ferrari as we move to the late noughties. Williams did increase their budget but by much smaller percentage.

dannyjo22 · 14 Feb 2011 at 19:58

rpstewart said:
I'm not sure how much of the sell off is to raise capital and how much is simply Frank & Patrick cashing in while they still can - they're both OAPs after all.

Maybe for Patrick but Williams said this week he won't be taking money away from the team. I wish he would he deserves it.

sunama said:
Hehehe.

Senna came on national TV and declared that he would drive for Williams for free (he wasn't joking). .

Of course he wasn't being serious. He was staking claim and showing his interest in a move. Senna was a tough negotiator. It was bluster, he got paid very well to join williams.

Mr Jack said:
I could be remembering incorrectly, but I recall Williams being higher than McLaren and not far off Ferrari in the 90's. Mind you I wasn't such a fan then, so I could easily be wrong

I couldn't track down any figures from a quick Google, anyone have any sources?

Yes Williams had the 2nd highest budget in 97. Just under £40 million. Through the 90's the 2nd highest budget swapped many times between them and Mclaren depending on engine supplier and sponsor.

I don't believe the downfall was as much to do with losing newey as the lack or foresight to diverse into other areas and looking in other areas to increase the budget. They got left behind. BMW should have been a bigger help but the cocky arrogant ****s thought they could do it better alone.

Williams paid the drivers salaries when it was required, when you consider they had a £40 million budget in the late 90's they still offered JV 12 million to stay, Hill wanted 10 million and was shown the door. I doubt very much Senna was paid much less than what he was on at Mclaren.

I'd love to see Williams recover, but I fear they are so far behind now it's just a matter of time before they sell up like Jordan to some souless name.

SpeedFreak · 14 Feb 2011 at 21:47

I'll predict RBR, Mercedes and then McLaren this season. Something tells me Ross Brawn is underplaying his car this year.

TheGamingGeneral · 14 Feb 2011 at 22:05

SpeedFreak said:
I'll predict RBR, Mercedes and then McLaren this season. Something tells me Ross Brawn is underplaying his car this year.

I have been wondering this, particularly with michaels comments of mercs concern. I cant work out if its a legit concern or a tactic to put everone off, seems a bit to obvious if it is, a kind of, ooo, we suck dont pay attention to us sort of deal. If Brawn knew he had a quick car, I'd keep my mouth shut and not say a word (but then I suppose that in of it's self would stir rumour, I love testing

)

I wasnt a fan of F1 during the schui years but I have to admit I kinda would really like to see him slap the playstation generation (of which I belong) off there perch, particularly seb.

gord · 14 Feb 2011 at 22:16

I take the most notice of the reports on the ground and what people are seeing in the flesh. To that effect the RB is looking dominant, which is a shame as I would prefer to see a more level playing field. The champ was close last year, but that was easily the best car.

The McLaren is still a complete oddball. Radical design differences and not much info from the ground. The return of KERS, movable rear wings etc, there's so many variables this year... it's harder than ever to tell.

JonnyT · 14 Feb 2011 at 22:26

dannyjo22 said:
I don't believe the downfall was as much to do with losing newey as the lack or foresight to diverse into other areas and looking in other areas to increase the budget. They got left behind. BMW should have been a bigger help but the cocky arrogant ****s thought they could do it better alone.

How could BMW have been a bigger help during their years as an engine supplier to Williams (2000-2005) given that they were just that - an engine supplier - and after a (by their own admission) conservative transition year in 2000 produced what was widely regarded as the most powerful engine on the grid??

The Williams cars of 2001 and 2002, particularly in JPM's hands, were quick but fragile. I lost count of the times JPM (and occaisionally Ralf) would be leading and pulling away only for the car to grind to a halt. Williams failed to push on from this to produce a truly great car. Part of the reason for this was getting rid of Geoff Willis, who then went on to design the 'best of the rest' BAR006 in 2004.

I didn't like BMW's decision to go it alone as I do like Williams and cant stand Dr Theissen but you can understand it after five years of no titles...

FrankJH · 14 Feb 2011 at 22:39

sunama said:
Hehehe.

Senna came on national TV and declared that he would drive for Williams for free (he wasn't joking). I didnt particularly like Senna as a personality, but I certainly

Its funny that in those days a driver could do those things and nobody would not speak ill of him. Yet, in 2011 is somebody like Alonso did that (say he offered to drive for RBR for free), everybody would be up in arms over his disloyalty to his current paymasters.

How things have changed.

But then there is a big difference between Senna and Alonso anyway

Alonso maybe one of the best around - but its debatable about whether his natural talent outclasses everyone around him (which would have been a fair way to describe Senna for a number of years before he died)

Just my opinion mind - and Ive never particularly warmed to Alonso (expectly the opposite to be honest)

dannyjo22 said:
snip.

Dont have any links admittedly - but always believed (from Autosport I would have thought) that Hill wanted £6m to stay in 97 and was therefore shown the door.

Would be very surprised if Williams offered JV £12m a couple of years later (unless it was a multi year amount)

edit - I always loved Williams in the Early to mid 90's , really wonderful team imo but they lost a lot when Newey left and then had the fast but unreliable BMW (Just from memory but I could be completely wrong - I always thought BMW were a technical partner to Williams during the latter part of their engine supply years - and they did a lot more for the team than just the engines - like Mercedes USED to do for McLaren until 1 o 2 years ago, there was a time when Mercedes/Ilmor produced a lot more parts on the car than just the engine for Ron)

Alpherah · 14 Feb 2011 at 22:43

With the cars and rules as they are today, i doubt we would ever see a Driver as good as Senna. Simply because individual skill counts for so much less then it used to (Cars, bad tracks, limited overtaking chances etc)

BoostedDC2 · 14 Feb 2011 at 22:49

JonnyT said:
The Williams cars of 2001 and 2002, particularly in JPM's hands, were quick but fragile. I lost count of the times JPM (and occaisionally Ralf) would be leading and pulling away only for the car to grind to a halt.

Funny you mention this. I just happened to stumble across a VHS tape of the 2001 Canadian GP on Sat. Ralf outfoxed his bigger brother to take the win. The Wiliams BMW was able to stayc close to the F2001 until Schu pitted. Ralf ran several fast laps to get clear of his brother. The Williams had the pace, but as you stated the reliability was an issue. FWIW JPM stuffed it in the wall that day.

I also found it interesting when a Minardi retiring on the 7th lap with a young Alonso at the wheel.

SpeedFreak · 14 Feb 2011 at 22:51

GeneralD said:
I have been wondering this, particularly with michaels comments of mercs concern. I cant work out if its a legit concern or a tactic to put everone off, seems a bit to obvious if it is, a kind of, ooo, we suck dont pay attention to us sort of deal. If Brawn knew he had a quick car, I'd keep my mouth shut and not say a word (but then I suppose that in of it's self would stir rumour, I love testing )

I wasnt a fan of F1 during the schui years but I have to admit I kinda would really like to see him slap the playstation generation (of which I belong) off there perch, particularly seb.

For me it's because they've shown good pace in one lap situations and their tyres are going off fast in comparison to the others (Ferrari and Red Bull) That is indicative of either a heavy fuel load early on or very bad mechanical grip. Since they seem to be carrying good speed in the corners I'd have to go with heavy. Coupled with the fact that Brawn has spoken of much improved developments coming I think they may surprise some people.

FrankJH · 14 Feb 2011 at 22:53

Alpherah said:
With the cars and rules as they are today, i doubt we would ever see a Driver as good as Senna. Simply because individual skill counts for so much less then it used to (Cars, bad tracks, limited overtaking chances etc)

laughs - I didnt want to start that roundabout of an arguement , its impossible to tell imo , maybe Hill/Stewart /Hawthorne hey even Fangio would have been terrible in today's cars - maybe they would have been better than Schumi , No one will ever know

sunama · 14 Feb 2011 at 23:33

FrankJH said:
But then there is a big difference between Senna and Alonso anyway

Alonso maybe one of the best around - but its debatable about whether his natural talent outclasses everyone around him (which would have been a fair way to describe Senna for a number of years before he died)

Well, I like to think that Mansell had bundles of natural talent. But I am an uber Mansell fan so I can't speak objectively about him

Alonso certainly has natural ability, but IMO Hamilton has more.

FrankJH said:
Dont have any links admittedly - but always believed (from Autosport I would have thought) that Hill wanted £6m to stay in 97 and was therefore shown the door.

I actually thought that Hill was prepared to take less. In the end he went to Arrows (was it?), where he was paid £7M. Many people including myself, felt that he sold out. I don't know how much of it is true and how much of it is just made up.

FrankJH said:
Would be very surprised if Williams offered JV £12m a couple of years later (unless it was a multi year amount)

My thoughts exactly. Even when dealing with Prost, Senna and Mansell, Williams did not want to break the bank and haggled over money. My understanding is that they paid all 3 drivers far less than £12M, so I find it difficult to understand how they would offer JV £12M/year (if this was indeed the deal).

I googled this thread which goes over the reasons for Hill's departure from Williams.