FA CUP FINAL ... Arsenal v Chelsea ... Saturday 27th May *** Spoilers ***

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Honest question - Im not dissing Arsenal at all, but does the FA Cup actually count for anything anymore in real terms (apart from the theoretical Europa entry, which is irrelevant most years)?

Its a real pity because of the history, but Im not sure it does for the top teams.
If a manager is under immense pressure - then sure, its handy to point to something / anything - or to a brand new manager in a team , which is another good reason to value it - otherwise its a bit "meh" isnt it?
It is the second (third if the UCL is included) most prestigious trophy in Englandia and it means a lot to a lot of people. Beating "the Champions" also makes it that little bit sweeter. On top of that, as the statisticians would be obliged to mention, that is 2-1 to Arsenal and not just on the day.

Who are the true Champions, some might begin to wonder.
 

TNA

TNA

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Because Arsenal have a roughly 170mil net spend and average around 185-190mil a year wage bill in the past three years, Spurs have a 16mil net spend under Poch, and an average 95mil a year wage bill, and they've gone from 5-6th to a solid 2nd in the league while we've gone from 2nd to 5th.. but we did well in a consolation cup that seemingly only teams who aren't in the league or european fight care about in any given year? I didn't care about the Carling Cup, the FA cup or the completely pointless community shield 5 years ago, 3 years ago, last year or this year. The two big competitions are league and europe, the consolation cup is the FA cup, the consolation cup to the consolation cup is the Carling cup, the community shield is there for if someone can claim a treble with it to try and make their season sound less crap.

We couldn't be Leicester last year, we couldn't get top four this year, but yay, we won the FA cup, beating greats such as Sutton and Lincoln on the way to the final... whoop whoop. WHo has won the FA cup in the past 4 years can be directly linked to how well that team was doing in the league and europe that year, failure = good in the cup, rubbish means actually had a chance at league and europe.

So these days all that matters is Champions League and Premier League then yes? Even if Arsenal won the treble or more there would be fans finding a way to call for Wenger's head imo. I know what you and a few others here would say. "He should go now on a high".

Also your argument is funny, first you sight wage bill being the issue for spurs, then you bring up Leicester who won the league with what I would imagine to be a much smaller wage bill than spurs, they also did much better in the champions league than spurs. What exactly have spurs really done, once in 20 years finish above us? Yet as I said people hold them up high and bury Arsenal when talking. Makes no sense. We finished 2nd last year also, but as Leicester won, that was not an good enough achievement for you?

End of the day it is all about expectations. You are upset as you are want to see us go back to the invincibles era. Yeah that would be great, but we could soon end potentially like Liverpool and Man U if Wenger goes. Look at Man U, even with the "Special One" they finished below us, what about their wages, is it not bigger than ours, why do they keep sucking since Fergie left?.

It is all easy being a captain hindsight but reality is many fans do not understand what Wenger did for us during the period where we had no money to spend. They just sit back in their chair and demand.
 
Soldato
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Was surprised at how utter **** Chelsea we're, arsenal were better in all aspects so well played. Arsenal may of missed out on top 4 however they won a cup which ourselves,city didn't so I'd say they had the better season. Annoys me how cups are so over looked winning trophies breeds confidence
 
Man of Honour
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Very disappointing performance yesterday, Arsenal were just more lively from the first whistle and we never really got up to their level.
Fair play to theme everyone had written them off beforehand.

Honest question - Im not dissing Arsenal at all, but does the FA Cup actually count for anything anymore in real terms (apart from the theoretical Europa entry, which is irrelevant most years)?

Its a real pity because of the history, but Im not sure it does for the top teams.
If a manager is under immense pressure - then sure, its handy to point to something / anything - or to a brand new manager in a team , which is another good reason to value it - otherwise its a bit "meh" isnt it?

That's an odd question to ask seeing as how you claimed that Man.U's season could be better than Chelsea's and you won 2 "meh" trophies with nowhere near the prestige of the FA Cup.
 
Caporegime
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So these days all that matters is Champions League and Premier League then yes? Even if Arsenal won the treble or more there would be fans finding a way to call for Wenger's head imo. I know what you and a few others here would say. "He should go now on a high".

Also your argument is funny, first you sight wage bill being the issue for spurs, then you bring up Leicester who won the league with what I would imagine to be a much smaller wage bill than spurs, they also did much better in the champions league than spurs. What exactly have spurs really done, once in 20 years finish above us? Yet as I said people hold them up high and bury Arsenal when talking. Makes no sense. We finished 2nd last year also, but as Leicester won, that was not an good enough achievement for you?

End of the day it is all about expectations. You are upset as you are want to see us go back to the invincibles era. Yeah that would be great, but we could soon end potentially like Liverpool and Man U if Wenger goes. Look at Man U, even with the "Special One" they finished below us, what about their wages, is it not bigger than ours, why do they keep sucking since Fergie left?.

It is all easy being a captain hindsight but reality is many fans do not understand what Wenger did for us during the period where we had no money to spend. They just sit back in their chair and demand.


Actually the problem is fans who have exactly no idea what they are talking about, who believe he had no money to spend in a period in which all of Arsenal's financial records were published and available to see, in which our debt repayments are listed clearly, in which the cash sitting in the Arsenal cash account is clearly listed, in which the yearly large rise in wages was listed.

At no stage, not for one second, were Arsenal worse off financially after the stadium move than before, not for a single year. There was never a time where increased profit from the new stadium wasn't higher than the debt repayments. This is provable, you can look up the records yourself and see this is a fact, but instead so many Arsenal fans like to pretend he did something god like while spending nothing.

People even like to rewrite his early years with Arsenal, i cba'd looking up the exact years we won the various cups, but we won the league in 90/91, we won I think 2 FA cups or Carling Cups between 91-96, we won the uefa cup final two seasons before Wenger took over and we got to the uefa cup final the following season. Wenger didn't take over a 19th place Arsenal who hadn't won anything for donkeys years. He took over a team that frequently finished in the top 6, that won european and domestic cup competitions, that had a genuinely incredible defence, goal keeper and multiple other great players. He definitely took us forwards, massively, but also with one of the top two wage/spending bills in the league. He spent fairly well to achieve the successful period he did, and he didn't build a defence, didn't build a mentality into the team, that was already there and he's entirely failed to replicate that leadership, strength and mentality since the last of those players left in 04/05.

Just because Utd screwed up, doesn't mean we will, as for captain hindsight, you can go back and look at posts from 05-07 time frame, I noticed the change in style, in the defence, in the mentality, in the type of players he was keeping and the money he was wasting on so many players and said back then that if he didn't have a huge turn around in a couple of years he needs to be going. Nothing has changed since then, there was a huge change in the on pitch style of football, in the mentality/attitude of the players he was giving new contracts to and who he was choosing to push out of the club. It was a nearly complete u-turn compared to how he acted, who he kept and the style we played before 06/07.
 
Caporegime
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Who are the true Champions, some might begin to wonder.

Good job it's decided on 38 games over a season, not 1v1 records.

Chelsea were utterly dismal yesterday, no one expected Arsenal to win it, let alone totally boss it.

I think sensible Arsenal fans (if such a thing exists) would still be disappointed with this season, as the new stadium was built as a way to compete with Europe's elite, however losing 10-2 in a 6th consecutive round of 16 defeat and having to put up with the Europa League for a season is the reality. It's going to make keeping Sanchez much more difficult, and replacing him impossible.
 
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Soldato
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That's an odd question to ask seeing as how you claimed that Man.U's season could be better than Chelsea's and you won 2 "meh" trophies with nowhere near the prestige of the FA Cup.

IF Chelsea had won yesterday then undoubtedly they would have had a better season, but as both got CL qualification (which really is all that matters given financial considerations) and won a title to two Im not sure if there is that big a difference between Utd's and Chelsea's season as a whole.

There are only two reasons why this and only this year means so much to Utd fans, Utd never winning the UEFA /Europa cup before and therefore , along with Chelsea , being one of 5 clubs to have won everything - and the CL Qualification. If at any point in the future its won again Im not sure it will mean quite so much.

I honestly am not entirely sure if the FA Cup means that much compared to 10.....20...or however many years ago - unless its for a much smaller team where the Europa quali means more.

End of the day it is all about expectations. You are upset as you are want to see us go back to the invincibles era. Yeah that would be great, but we could soon end potentially like Liverpool and Man U if Wenger goes. Look at Man U, even with the "Special One" they finished below us, what about their wages, is it not bigger than ours, why do they keep sucking since Fergie left?.

Remember Utd currently have a completely mismatched squad assembled by Fergie, Moyes, LvG and JM, which isnt helping performances (let alone it was well reported that morale was very low in the changing room when JM arrived , even after winning the FA Cup last season, because of all the struggles in the last few seasons) .

Im not even sure if many Man Utd fans would miss any of the signings before JM apart from Herrera - it really wouldnt be that much of a surprise if Darmian, Blind, Shaw and even Martial (the last 2 who JM doesnt appear to like much) all left over the summer. That jus shows how unsuccessful the transfer policy has been over the last few years.

You alos have to look at the club turnover, quick google suggests your last annual figure was just under £200m , compared to Utd's £515m - so its a bit silly to compare wages and such like - we may be doing worse than you but with figures that much better the club can afford to (even while performing badly on the pitch) without being under too much pressure also. Potentially we have more time on our side etc.
 
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Don
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Who are you trying to kid Frank? Utd finished 6th in the League and stumbled over the line in 2 Cup competitions where they faced no serious competition. The hardest games Utd played were City's kids and Southampton and both times they were fortunate to win thanks to terrible officiating. Utd's season was saved by the fact that the EL happened to come with a place in next seasons CL - there actual performances have been poor at best. Chelsea won the PL with the 2nd(?) highest points total ever. Not really comparable.

And Arsenal's last set of accounts show a turnover of less than £200m? Have you gone back in time?
 

TNA

TNA

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Who are you trying to kid Frank? Utd finished 6th in the League and stumbled over the line in 2 Cup competitions where they faced no serious competition. The hardest games Utd played were City's kids and Southampton and both times they were fortunate to win thanks to terrible officiating. Utd's season was saved by the fact that the EL happened to come with a place in next seasons CL - there actual performances have been poor at best. Chelsea won the PL with the 2nd(?) highest points total ever. Not really comparable.

And Arsenal's last set of accounts show a turnover of less than £200m? Have you gone back in time?
+1
 
Man of Honour
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...Im not sure if there is that big a difference between Utd's and Chelsea's season as a whole.
It has been fantastic watching Chelsea play this season (post the Arsenal 0-3) which has also contributed to our great season.
Most games were a joy to watch with at least 5 really outstanding performances which had everyone purring about their football, barring JM and Wenger if course.
Not sure if many Man.U. fans enjoyed watching them that much going by the comments in here.
 
Soldato
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If Arsenal got 4th and lost the cup they would have been slagged off for not winning anything, they win the cup and get 5th, they get slagged off lol

Can't win with some fans.

Disappointing overall year but the FA Cup and decent end to their season was nice, shame they didn't change formation earlier.

Wenger will stay another couple of years, hope he does better next year.
 

TNA

TNA

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If Arsenal got 4th and lost the cup they would have been slagged off for not winning anything, they win the cup and get 5th, they get slagged off lol

Can't win with some fans.

Disappointing overall year but the FA Cup and decent end to their season was nice, shame they didn't change formation earlier.

Wenger will stay another couple of years, hope he does better next year.
We still got a decent amount of points, it was close between the 3rd-5th spot.
 
Soldato
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Bizarly even just now I'm getting a sky sports headline from 2017 saying arsenal announce a 191m turnover.
I should have read the actual article which clearly said it's 6 month results

The point is of course still valid with a difference of 25% in the turnover figures

Performance levels are not recorded in the history books - and given Chelsea only played ~ 70 % of the matches Utd did their performances SHOULD be about better.
I also clearly said that it's also based around the sentiment of it being the 1st time Utd had won this cup and completing the collection.

Let's see how Chelsea perform in Feb 2018 onwards with similar levels of matches
 
Don
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I do admire your persistence Frank. No matter how crazy your initial point is you'll argue it to the death.

Whenever you talk about the matches Utd have had to play, you never mention the fact that Utd have a considerably bigger and costlier squad than all their rivals too though. Why is that? In the other thread you talk about Utd's injury problems yet despite these (fwiw Liverpool had bigger problems in terms of days missed) Utd still managed to put out a squad in the EL final that cost around £400m and consisted of 17 full internationals. Prior to the EL final somebody detailed the number of minutes played by both starting line-ups and despite Ajax playing far fewer games than Utd, their players had played far more minutes. Do you know why that was? Because Utd have a massive squad to deal with these extra games.

As for Arsenal's turnover, even had it been £200m your point still wasn't valid. The point TNA made was that Wenger has less resources than Utd but finished ahead of them. Why does the difference in the clubs' turnover change that?
 
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