Feel like I'm missing out on some low end *Solved with XXLS400*

Caporegime
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Chadderton, Oldham
So I've got the wharfedale 9.1's and super happy with the sound quality, but I was in the coffee shop and they got Tannoy Mercury floor stands in, and I notice this lovely bass even at low volumes that's just around you and really low, can't explain it and that's a crappy explanation.

I don't want to go and buy all new speakers but thinking of a sub for 100-150 to do the job? Any idea what sort of sub would do this, think I need an active sub? As I have a CEOL Piccolo N5.

Would like some good bass capability but also the full low end for any volume so I'm not missing any of the ranges.

I assume to match the bass output of say my Logitech Z5500 I'd have to spend a lot more? As I say bass output not quality I'm sure that'd be easy to beat.

Any suggestions welcome.

Thanks
 
what kind of amplifier are you running the wharfedales with? Could potentially be that it just can't provide enough power at lower volumes to produce good bass
 
First, some good news....

Your CEOL Piccolo N5 has a dedicated subwoofer output socket (RCA phono) on the bottom right of the rear panel. That oppens up your subwoofer choices because a lot of entry-level subs only have this as a connection socket.


Now, some not so good news....

£100-£150 (presuming new) won't get you a nice sub for music.

As with most consumer goods, there a minimum-spend threshold to get past just to get decent build and performance. If you work the price back by taking off VAT, retailer's margin, distributor and manufacturer margins, support costs, transport costs, corporation tax etc etc then the £100-£150 sub might have a cost to manufacture for labour and materials of around £30 to £50. That can be quite a sobering thought. It leaves the designers with some very hard choices.

In the case of a budget sub it's compromises over materials, cabinet thickness, construction, type of sub (sealed vs ported), finish and so on. These choices translate to lighter (flimsier) cabinets covered in vinyl wrap which saves a big chunk of cash. There'll be less internal bracing so the cabinet resonances won't be as well controlled, this then feeds in to the accuracy of the sound. The driver choice will look okay on paper, but aspects such as efficiency and compliance will have been compromised to hit a price point. The sub's amp plate won't have much in the way of power reserve over the quoted output since the manufacturer will want the biggest headline power figure for the least $$$'s of production budget.

The bottom line then is your typical £100-£150 sub is designed for the movie market rather than for music lovers. Priority will be give to bass volume/slam by using a ported design to get the best bang per Buck. Compared to a sealed sub, ported designs at entry-level prices can sound a bit slow and one-notey.


Back to the good news....

It doesn't take much to turn things around.

Cutting out the retail element by selling direct from the factory makes a massive difference to the value that a buyer can achieve. BK Subs does exactly that. They sell direct, so there's a big chunk of costs cut from the equation. That means more money goes in to the product and you the customer get a better sub as a direct result.

You still won't hit £100-£150 new, but at £225 direct from the factory, the BK Gemini II sub is impossible to beat for build quality and performance.

This is a 10" sealed sub with a genuine 150 Watt amp. The footprint is very compact. It's also a sophisticated sub in that it has both a line level (RCA phono) and a speaker level connection so it's a good partner even for simple stereo Hi-Fi amps. These are potent little subs that do music beautifully and make a decent stab at TV/movie audio bass playing through your CEOL or an AV receiver too.

BK subs come up for sale in the secondhand market as owners get bitten by the bug and upgrade. Gemini II typically change hands for around £150 used in the basic wood veneer finishes.


Looking at alternatives, Richers have the ELAC S10 Debut at £150. It's also 10", and although they have it as a clearance deal, I wouldn't consider it a worthy competitor to a Gemini II. It has all the compromises of a budget movie sub. It's undoubtedly better than the £100 Yamaha sub which is their next cheapest offering, but still compromised by it price/performance ratio.
 
Don't just buy a cheap ass sub, a cheap sub is worse than no sub at all.

The sub with that logity is not a quality sub, it'll go loud but that's about it

Of course you are missing low notes on bookshelf speakers that why if you can afford it floorstanders are the way to go. I have various floorstanders and stand mount and typically with standmount you need sub to fill the bottle end. If £150 if your limit then so not buy new buy second hand, my whafedale sw-150 was £100 and wod be good match other than that bk gemini or if want more serious go xls200.

For movies you want to higher still.

As for sealed and ported both have pros and cons, sonically and design wise.

A good ported sub shouldn't be slow. If I am being critical I do prefer sealed for music but a good ported kicks it hard for movies. Ideally if had money, space and ability to change on the fly I'd have both.

Haven't had a chance to do proper listen of that sw-150 but for price paid for it can't complain.
 
Avoid the bash amp svs subs they have possible relabitity.

The monolith plus is £600.

As for sealed versus ported it's not cut and dry, if he wants it for movies then a sealed box may underperform. A ported sub with the same driver and amp with offer several dB more output. Also have far more guts it's like comparing percussion wave of a firecracker and grenade, the ported sub gives that pressure wave.

I had svs ported sub and changed to sealed version, same driver and amp in both just different design. I do miss the ported sub for movies.

Just depends what he wants.
 
Don't buy cheap subs.
Get two xxls400's like I do with an antimode, amazeballs :D

Lol :D :D :D

The subtle approach, I see ;)


In all seriousness though, try to remember what the guy is looking for and his initial budget.

As awesome as the big SVS 16" subs are, they have an equally awe inspiring price tag to go with them. Unless you're a lottery winner, something in the City, or a trust fund kid, then £2,500 is a fair chunk of chess to drop on a sub. I can't help feeling that one of those might be a tad out of.place with the £100 Wharfedales :D
 
Didn't realise I had replied it wasn't telling me! Well thanks for the info, I love the look of the XLX200, might have to go for that maybe second hand. Looks like it has a bit of meat to it compared to the Gemini 2. The Wharfedales kick out a lot of bass for their size I think, just the bottom end is invisible.

Would down firing be worse for next door annoyance? No one below just a car park though.
 
Didn't realise I had replied it wasn't telling me! Well thanks for the info, I love the look of the XLX200, might have to go for that maybe second hand. Looks like it has a bit of meat to it compared to the Gemini 2. The Wharfedales kick out a lot of bass for their size I think, just the bottom end is invisible.

Would down firing be worse for next door annoyance? No one below just a car park though.

Your 9.1s have a pronounced bass hump at 80Hz. It's a design trick to create the impression of more bass than the cabinet size and driver diameter can really achieve.

Below that point the bass output falls away quite quickly. That explains why you feel like "the bottom end is invisible". The spec says that the speakers get down to 60Hz at -6dB. The dB thing is important. It's significantly less than the normal playing volume. It's not quite half volume, but heading there.

Those Tannoys you heard (if they were Mercury M4 or V4) get down to 35Hz at -6dB IIRC. The Gemini II will replicate that pretty closely.

The XLX200 isn't that much different in cabinet volume and driver size, but it does use a more powerful amp and a better quality driver. Both these things help it dig a tad deeper and go louder in the same size room.
 
How powerful are those Tannoys? Would a Gemini 2 be better? I'm thinking of asking him if he wants to swap since they're used in a railway arch in a caffee don't think he'd be fussed I hope. But then again would they work with my amp I have?
 
Your definition of powerful might not be the same as mine, so what I'll say is the Tannoy F3 are 3dB/W more efficient than your 9.1s (89 vs 86dB/W) and they'll dig down to 35Hz @ -3dB. Your 9.1s are 50Hz at -6dB rather than the 60Hz @ -6dB I wrote in an earlier post.

The efficiency of the Tannoys is a plus. If you were playing a simple 1000Hz test tone, then you'd need only half the power for Tannoys to make the same volume level as is possible with the Wharfedales. It's not quite as black and white as that statement makes it seem though. The way our hearing works, you'd need an amp 10x more powerful to make a speaker sound twice as loud.

The other thing is that because the Tannoy goes deeper it also draws more power from the amp as a consequence. What you gain from efficiency then you lose in the extra juice required to drive those deeper notes.

The Tannoys would work with your Piccolo, but maybe not sound quite as sweet or detailed.

The Wharfedales are really very good, probably far better than the Piccolo really deserves; they just lack a bit of bottom end. A sub would sort that out nicely.
 
Get a small good sub I rate the Dali e9f also and save up aiming to get two if you can for supreme bass domination.
 
Get a small good sub I rate the Dali e9f also and save up aiming to get two if you can for supreme bass domination.

Good small sealed subs are expensive.

Also typically small subs are rubbish either because small driver and/or if ported high freq port tune


37hz frequency response is poor for e9f. My main speakers go lower than that.
 
I think I like the look at the 10" BK sub if I can get it a bit cheaper . I'd also use it for movies
 
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